EP 82-Alexander de Bruijn | 3D Forensics - Netherlands Police

Alexander DeBruijn began as a forensic photographer at the regional police Ijsselland in 2000 . In 2005, he joined a multi-police agency project group to investigate the adoption of Lidar and panoramic image scanners within The Netherlands police departments. in 2015 he joined the visualisation and reconstruction expert team which specializes in bringing laser scanners, handheld scanners, surveying equipment, panoramic cameras and other technologies to assist in investigations and to bring presentations to court. His current focus is XR visualization possibilities for use in the criminal investigation process and he is part of the "PDVision3D" development team, a Unity based general 3d and multiuser xr data viewer developed by the ETVR wich has been used in several court cases.

Originally aired on: March 23, 2023

Transcript

00;00;27;26 - 00;01;05;05
Eugene
Hey everyone, it’s Eugene here and welcome to Forensic Talks. This is episode 82. And today my guest is Alexander de Bruijn. And we're going to be talking about 3D forensics in the Netherlands police. So, Alexander de Bruin is a forensic visualization specialist with the ETVR, and that stands for Expert Team Visualization and Reconstruction at the Netherlands Police. He started at the regional police in Ijsseland in 2000 as a forensic photographer, and he was interested in photography, but also in panoramic photography and 3D models.

00;01;05;11 - 00;01;28;12
Eugene
And he was looking for ways to sort of up his game, so to speak. In 2005, Alexander joined a multi police Agency project group to investigate the adoption of light Hour, the panoramic image scanners with the Netherlands police departments. And then in 2015 is when he joined the ETR group. Now Alex gives training and support of photography, photogrammetry, data processing and visualization techniques.

00;01;28;20 - 00;01;49;06
Eugene
His main interest is in XR visualization and the possibilities for usage in criminal investigation. He's part of the PD Vision 3D Development Team, and I'm definitely going to be asking him about this. This is a Unity based general 3D Multiuser XR data viewer developed by his team, by the ETVR team, and it's already been used in several court cases.

00;01;49;16 - 00;02;02;25
Eugene
Now I met Alexander sometime. Oh, I think it's around 2011. We were having some discussion on this, and we weren't exactly clear, but I know for sure we met around some time in 2011. So let me let me bring him in here. Hey, Alex, how are you doing?

00;02;03;18 - 00;02;04;27
Alexander
Very well, thank you. How are you?

00;02;05;10 - 00;02;14;22
Eugene
I'm doing great. And hey, really appreciate you being here. Yeah, we've I guess we've known each other for more than ten years. Time flies.

00;02;15;08 - 00;02;18;26
Alexander
I was a bit unclear about that, but. Yeah, definitely 2020.

00;02;19;05 - 00;02;35;16
Eugene
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've met multiple times, and I've had the pleasure of meeting your team there. I've been over to where you work, and I've seen some of the things that you guys are doing and yeah, thanks everybody for, you know, the team there and having you here as a representative is great and I want to get into it here.

00;02;35;24 - 00;02;56;20
Eugene
So let me ask you about to let me ask you about your beginnings. And you started in 2000 as a forensic photographer, and then you start moving into the panoramic stuff in 3D. So, what was it about or what was it that triggered you to say, hey, you know what? I you know, it's not just photography anymore. I got to move into the 3-D, the 3-D portion or the panoramic part.

00;02;57;15 - 00;03;21;27
Alexander
Yeah, well, started in 2000. We were still using traditional analog photography, and it was right about that time that we started to transition to digital photography. So, one of the responsibilities was also running the development center, buying film, buying chemicals. So, you have time left. So, you start to re-evaluate what's actually what. You sort of evaluate what's the job that I'm doing.

00;03;21;27 - 00;03;41;23
Alexander
And that for the most part it was documenting trace evidence that was brought in. But also documenting crime scenes. So, you have this new technique, digital photography, which also always had my interest, and you start to think of how I can use this in a more effective way to do my job in a better way, and to add value to an investigation in an easy way.

00;03;42;11 - 00;04;06;10
Alexander
And one of the first things that we started to experiment with have been photography was a bit difficult in those days. You need this special tripod. You have to learn what the normal point was. The software was very slow because algorithms like Swift weren't invented yet. Still, that was a different relating. Also, stitching a panoramic photograph was actually a brute force calculation that took hours and hours.

00;04;07;03 - 00;04;16;21
Alexander
Nowadays, every smartphone can do it. And that started the ball rolling from documenting crime scenes and how you can do those things better.

00;04;17;29 - 00;04;40;27
Eugene
Now, you were later on, like when I was talking about the introduction, you were part of a like this multi police agency project group. And I wanted to ask you about that because it sounds like all of a sudden there was interest in doing more with, you know, imaging scanners and that sort of thing. And I believe you had mentioned to me before that that had to do with a well, I guess what initiated it was a fireworks disaster.

00;04;41;16 - 00;05;05;02
Alexander
Yes. In 2000, there was a very large explosion in the town. And today in the Netherlands, it's an east of the Netherlands. It's a reasonable big provincial city at that explosion, about 20 to 23 people were killed and a thousand people were injured. An entire neighborhood was blown away. It's just one wasteland of rubble and broken houses.

00;05;05;02 - 00;05;33;22
Alexander
And a very large hole in the ground was a fireworks factory. It was a small fire, and eventually it resulted in an enormous number of fireworks exploding all at the same time. Basically, all of the medals, police, all technical personnel were there to clear the rubble and to search for human remains. It was literally sifting through tons and tons of rubble.

00;05;34;02 - 00;05;58;23
Alexander
This also needed to be documented for the investigation. There were two teams at that time that could do that. One of them was a national traffic investigation unit that had total stations and switched. NE actually surveyed eight entire sites with traditional means, total stations, measuring tapes, etc. and there was one team from Rotterdam, also traffic investigators who used photogrammetry in those days.

00;05;58;23 - 00;06;28;09
Alexander
They used a rolling metric camera, and they used a helicopter flying around the scene and taking pictures and afterwards using a package from school. CCTV City, w I think for 3D for the war imagery was all manual points clicking in search and other photography photographs and then discovered something funny. Both teams got excellent results. Those results were combined by the Netherlands France Institute, making a very good animation.

00;06;28;09 - 00;06;49;04
Alexander
3D models use it for simulation, etc. But a funny thing that they realized was that the Netherlands is a very low country. We have lots of water and basically if you're building in the Netherlands, you're partially building underwater because the groundwater is very low. Basically, for you to shovel a hole in the ground, it will fill awkward water.

00;06;50;02 - 00;07;06;29
Alexander
So, if you have a large crater, it will also fill up with water. And if you use photogrammetry, you will just get the surface of the water, which you will not get the bottom of that hole. And with traditional surfing, you won't get as much detail, but you can put your surfing stick inside of the hole and you can measure the water depth.

00;07;07;15 - 00;07;38;20
Alexander
So, you needed both of those techniques to get a complete picture. And that's eventually started to ball rolling. A few years later, there was a company in the Netherlands called Delft. It's for 3D scanning. Lighter skin angles are very useful technique, and they gave a presentation, and they showed us one of the first cyber scanners that was a very large black wooden box that measured, which I think maybe a few thousand points per second was very slow, but it was a very interesting technique to use.

00;07;38;20 - 00;08;03;13
Alexander
And in Rotterdam, the team, the use of the crematory started to be interested in that and of for operation of some of the police forces in the Netherlands and those in those days we still have 24 separate police units in the Netherlands. Nowadays we have one national police. So, he started a project they wanted other units to participate in that.

00;08;03;17 - 00;08;27;10
Alexander
And together they brought two laser scanners and started experiments in cases. Eventually, that resulted in 2004, one of the first cases in Netherlands was reported. It was a shooting incident in Rotterdam. For those days we still hired the scanner. It was also Biddulph Tech, the people who introduced the first scanners, and in 2005 he bought the first scanners.

00;08;27;10 - 00;08;52;13
Alexander
And one of the first is we actually took was a murder of an activist in the city of a nightmare go through this Exactly. The region where he was killed was a very complex murder. It was and so simple stuff. And at the time it was it didn't look good. But the city was also restoring large parts of the city, but buildings were being demolished.

00;08;52;13 - 00;09;16;28
Alexander
So, to see needed to be preserved. And the person was a first case and that was police actually completely scanned themselves. So, we took a panoramic camera, two laser scanners from different brands because we didn't have one prints. We spent an enormous a few streets across roads in a very busy shopping center in a very large city. And we built a 3D model from it.

00;09;16;28 - 00;09;20;23
Alexander
And just way the first crime scene was preserved in 2005.

00;09;21;17 - 00;09;35;21
Eugene
Okay. And so, from this group of people, obviously, like you joined the VR in 2015, but I'm wondering, was the VR already established before then because somebody saw some benefit from all the 3D technologies that were being used?

00;09;37;00 - 00;10;03;03
Alexander
Yes, it the fireworks. There's also I mentioned there was this traffic support group and that we at that point is still at 24 different police corpses. Eventually that that's in a small country like the Netherlands, a very, very small country, about 20 million people living here. So, it's very densely populated. It was a very slow and practical situation, just only one supporting.

00;10;03;23 - 00;10;26;25
Alexander
So eventually the Netherlands police was reorganized. So, we now have ten regional units, but everybody falls under the same national police, and everybody works in the same way in every one of those regions has their own traffic investigation team. So, there was no longer a need for a very specialized traffic investigation team that only operated in one spot in the Netherlands.

00;10;26;25 - 00;10;57;01
Alexander
The course has become cheaper. It's easier, just better training for people. So, and that's all located and they're all very extra people in the regions nowadays. So that team started to focus more on crime scenes in violence and murder, because those days that was pushed to special a different specialty is nowadays it's all one. So, they renamed themselves from a traffic support unit to a technical reconstruction and disposition unit.

00;10;57;26 - 00;11;02;21
Alexander
And they started to support their way too. And that's how it was made.

00;11;03;03 - 00;11;26;18
Eugene
Okay, so let's talk about VR then. So, I've been there. I've seen like some of the technology that you're using and some of the things that you've been working on. But has the like was the mandate or was the goal of the ETI VR? Has it changed over the years, or has it changed with technology? Can you tell me maybe about some of the beginnings and then sort of where you are today in VR.

00;11;26;18 - 00;11;54;03
Alexander
There is this saying this without change, there's no progress, and the same goes with us. Technology changes so that the needs change. Technology becomes cheaper, faster, smaller, and it's more accessible to more people and photography hundreds of years ago, 50 few years ago was something that only a few people could do. Nowadays, everybody has a smartphone, but 20 years ago you had another camera and if you went on vacation and you weren't offered, you were all filming.

00;11;54;03 - 00;12;14;21
Alexander
It's so thin left to properly take months before you started to sell it, before developing your film because it was a waste to throw it away. Nowadays, photography is something that's very simple and it has changed and it that the real photographers that we used to have in every police unit are gone now and they are doing something different because everybody can take pictures.

00;12;14;21 - 00;12;40;07
Alexander
And the same goes with laser scanning through the years and needs from the local police units have changed. Scanners have become cheaper, sometimes maybe ten times cheaper and easier. Now they used to work with laptops. Nowadays you have scanners with just one button and nowadays most of the police units in the Netherlands have their own scanning equipment. They don't have it now in the process of acquiring one.

00;12;40;07 - 00;13;10;06
Alexander
So, this year, latest of halfway this year, every police unit in the Netherlands will have their own scanning equipment. They already have their own fingerprint imaging capital. Now they will have that too. So, our mandate starts to shift more to supports and research and development and instructing and teaching and developing new technologies in such a way that those police units can work more effectively and have some support if they run into trouble.

00;13;10;21 - 00;13;33;25
Alexander
And of course, if their scanners need to be calibrated or they're broken or something falls down and doesn't work anymore, we can always go there and support if needed. But that's basically has become our role now. We used to be a team that went everywhere and scanned everything and measured everything. The pictures and now we're very much in the supporting mode.

00;13;34;16 - 00;13;45;11
Eugene
Okay, so tell me about the VR team. Like approximately how many people are you and what kinds of backgrounds do each of these people have?

00;13;46;13 - 00;14;11;25
Alexander
The amount of people course constantly changes. At some point we were 15 people at this moment were 12 people. Some are still in training; some have been detached to other police units. But we are a very broad a broad collection of people. It used to be in the past that we only have police officers, just people who worked on the streets, did something with forensic units.

00;14;11;25 - 00;14;40;18
Alexander
It's something that's photography or we traffic investigations or maybe our electronics, etc. We even have people who are expertise on boating accidents. Listen and talking very fascinating expertise. And nowadays we hire people have a background in animation, game design, archeology. We even have a math teacher, someone who would have become from particle physics. And of course, a photographer.

00;14;42;09 - 00;14;59;02
Eugene
Well, a good a pretty wide-ranging group. So, I mean, that's good. You get a lot of different perspectives, a lot of different input in different areas. Now, is everyone trained to do kind of the same thing or do people have different sort of roles inside of the group, like special Specialties?

00;15;00;06 - 00;15;27;08
Alexander
Yes. The last thing everybody has their own interests and their own specialty because somebody with a background in electronics is not a game designer. And the same thing goes both ways. But still, everybody needs to be able to do some basic work. For example, going to a location, making scans, taking measurements, taking pictures. Those are things that we train all our staff to, to do.

00;15;27;16 - 00;16;17;16
Alexander
Everybody has to be able to go somewhere at a moment's notice and do their work because, oh, she could not get a 24 seven running surface in whole families. Because if specific people always knew the uncle and this way, we could spread that around. But besides that, everybody has their own specialty so that they're veteran. Some people are very good in, I will point out are after six presentations to present timeline sort of people are very good in organizing big events and different cooking that's something teaching so many scenography image processing, 3D modeling, your first few very, very talented 3D models amongst the staff, a programmer, just programs.

00;16;17;25 - 00;16;38;28
Alexander
So, to meet a very broad range of expertise to do this work. As you said, you meet different perspectives from things, but you also need a flexible team because somebody with a completely different background which has an idea from his background that is applicable to the work that you're doing at that moment. And it can make things faster or better efficient.

00;16;39;10 - 00;16;59;06
Eugene
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I've seen some of the work that you guys have been doing and some of the research and stuff and I have to say, you know, the Netherlands is whenever I talk about, you know, 3D forensics or 3D technologies, a lot of times in other agencies, you know, there may be like one or two or three people that are given a scanner on top of everything else that they're doing.

00;16;59;14 - 00;17;20;19
Eugene
And it's very difficult for them to sort of adopt it and focus on that particular technology. So, they never really become an expert in that area. They become proficient, but maybe it just takes a really long time. And in the Netherlands, I think it's really interesting how you guys have been able to focus. I mean, I think it's a really good example of how something can work, how you can produce some really top-notch level work.

00;17;20;19 - 00;17;23;27
Eugene
So yeah, I think that's a credit to the to the people there.

00;17;24;21 - 00;17;49;16
Alexander
It really is it really focus because what I see in most of the European countries, there are very, very highly skilled, highly trained people who specialize on their equipment. You know, example in Germany, Belgians or people working with Pixar and laser scanning who know much more than we do really. But it's mostly individuals. And I think that the thing that analysis is really real is that we have a bar.

00;17;49;16 - 00;18;11;26
Alexander
Everybody needs to reach that bar. They have to be proficient at a certain level and we are able to spread that level over the whole of the country, over a large group of people. And of course, there are some experts which we are guaranteed that you have a basic proficiency level everywhere in Netherlands, spread over a very large group, approximately maybe 40, 50 people.

00;18;12;24 - 00;18;30;00
Eugene
Well, I think, and I think this is this may be a European thing because, you know, in comparison here in North America or even in South America, you know, we don't have the same kind of focus. It's much more limited. There are some people that do get time. There are some agencies, but it's not it's not like they're like so, for example, people in Germany, I know they have it.

00;18;30;00 - 00;18;46;21
Eugene
They have a good team. They're just some highly trained and skilled people. They're people in some of the Scandinavian countries as well. They have like people that are focused as well. So yeah, I know to your point, I think though, it's a geographical thing. I think there's more yeah. More of that in Europe than there is over here.

00;18;46;21 - 00;19;03;20
Eugene
So hopefully that's a model that maybe we can look at and maybe focus on a bit more. Let me ask you about technology. I want to ask you about some of the technology that you've adopted in the Netherlands. What are all the different tools that are in your tool kit?

00;19;03;20 - 00;19;22;04
Alexander
I always compare it to a tool and carpenter If you take a carpenter and you look into his tool kit, you maybe see five, 15 hammers to salt, etc. They're all tools. And there's also this saying, if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And the same thing goes with us. We have a lot of different tools.

00;19;22;04 - 00;19;45;11
Alexander
You can use some different circumstances for different for different jobs, but we have lots of things. We have several different kinds of light. Our skin, dental stations from different brands, different kinds of 360 cameras, depending on the type of location that you are, the time that you have to follow it and get your needs. Lots of different software packages.

00;19;46;13 - 00;19;50;13
Alexander
It all depends on what job you're doing and what is needed at that moment.

00;19;51;07 - 00;19;56;16
Eugene
What is probably the most utilized tool there on most cases. Is the laser scanner.

00;19;57;04 - 00;20;26;22
Alexander
A most use mode? No, no. The panoramic 360 camera. Really? Yes. Leitner is a very grateful and we use it a lot, but we use the different camera slightly more because it's the best tool that we have. If I have a lighter skin or if it's a lot of processing, it needs time, specialization, evidence, explanation. If I go to a course, I need to explain what a lighter skin is, what accuracy is.

00;20;26;27 - 00;20;56;26
Alexander
Accuracy in lighter skin is, as you know, a very daunting task to explain to somebody who does not know. I never worked with that. But I don't need to explain a panoramic image because everybody has seen things like signal media or Google Street View. If I put somebody was never seen a was never seen one of our fisico presentation, if I put a person behind one of our presentations, he will take a mouse, He will click in the image, I will direct the mouse around.

00;20;56;26 - 00;21;21;13
Alexander
People know what he's doing. He sees, for example, a door and he know that's a door. But if I show you a door or make a scan with a lighter scanner, I need to explain what you're seeing. That's a difference in it. So, it makes a panoramic image one of the most powerful tools that we have after death, Of course, light our and photogrammetry and use traditional photography.

00;21;22;06 - 00;21;44;12
Alexander
You were in the news conference, and they talked about the Renaissance of photogrammetry. I think that's absolutely true. It's amazing what you can do nowadays with almost any image source and what we can extract from it from bookcases. But those three are the most used tools. And of those three, 360 degrees is photography, and choreography is the one we use the most.

00;21;44;12 - 00;22;11;20
Eugene
Yeah, I mean, in terms of documentation, the 360 camera is really beneficial because of it's a view, the field of view is amazing. You get a full view; you can move it and do these virtual tours and things like that. And that is half the battle. Right. And I think you would probably agree that there's no comparison between a good 360 camera or a 360 system and the panoramic image that you get on a laser scanner.

00;22;12;00 - 00;22;40;14
Eugene
They're not quite the same. Some are. Okay. But yeah high rez really good camera doing 360 will often give you much better results and let's I'd like to ask you about the training that you guys receive as well because obviously you know some of it you learn on your own but there's training as well and maybe some group things that you do about how often a year do you get training or do you get together as a group to do like exercises and things like that?

00;22;41;27 - 00;23;01;12
Alexander
Well, exercise, of course, is very important. We try to do several collaborative exercises with our colleagues in then in the Netherlands, for all the different teams. We try to at least organize one exercise together once a year, so everybody knows what to do if, if, if, if a large-scale explosion or a disaster that everybody is running around.

00;23;01;12 - 00;23;30;01
Alexander
So, you know what to do and how to work and what dates you need to deliver to be able to use data. And we try to we try to organize one maybe everyone, every year or every two years, something a day in which we exchange knowledge, two years ago, it was a field day. Last year it was a day in which we invited lots of scanner manufacturers at the police academy in the Netherlands and had some cases.

00;23;30;01 - 00;24;01;27
Alexander
And two days long we were watching people scan and talk about and he was products and presented the results and we tried to facilitate. Besides that, we also give lots of trainings at the Netherlands Police Academy. We give some trainings and lectures at some of the schools. The forensic education facilities that are in the Netherlands, and we try to do a higher training, be it online, beat in-person for different subjects.

00;24;02;05 - 00;24;31;21
Alexander
For example, one of the trains we got was from the basic AI. If some certification force has, but we also survey or at some point Will gave us a very good explanation about how surfing work and lots of it is of course, self-study breeding imitation that manufacturers provide to you. Lots of stuff on YouTube, Internet, different sites like LinkedIn, learning pleural sites, and the list goes on and on.

00;24;32;01 - 00;24;45;09
Eugene
Yeah, I'm looking at this one here. It looks like this was 2019 pre-COVID here, but this was like a forensic archeological recovery exercise here. So, I don't know. It was part of your team. It must have been part of your team who was helping with this.

00;24;45;29 - 00;25;15;21
Alexander
Yes. This training was given by a team of archeology chiefs that were instructing other people how to investigate clandestine graves. And we assisted in the training by showing how to how to measure one of the archeologists at the Netherlands Forensic Institute. My crew has a very specific protocol that he uses to document these kinds of graves and he works a lot with us because we know his protocol so we can assist him without bothering him with details.

00;25;16;24 - 00;25;39;02
Alexander
And he is trying to spread that mythology through. People want to learn it. In this case, it was done by the NC, the European Network of Forensic Institutes, and I think it's the training given in the UK. One of my colleagues allows police who are serving experts at these moments together with one of the ones returning very soon and they were giving the training.

00;25;39;25 - 00;26;02;25
Eugene
An excellent Well, I want to start moving into the next hour and the in your area that sort of been focusing on or whatever. And I do have some other questions about some other things you guys are doing. But let's talk about the firm at the beginning. When did you first or when did ETR first start looking into these are virtual reality, augmented reality, yeah.

00;26;02;25 - 00;26;03;26
Eugene
How do how did that come about?

00;26;05;06 - 00;26;44;11
Alexander
Well, first time it's probably around 24. Around the time that Oculus first started to develop, their development gets K one, dk2 around the time we started to experiment with it from the possibility to that point, it was still a bit technical. It was very hard to get it to work in unity, work real. Then Microsoft eventually came with the whole lens and a few different police departments at the next central unit that we are a part of and started to look into it because of the possibilities put to these techniques.

00;26;44;11 - 00;27;18;05
Alexander
And they started a across the department projects about art techniques. And some of the parts of that work is still running today. So, we were focusing mostly on how we can feature as a crime scene, because you have to realize that we have been using 3D scan since 2004. That's a very long time. Practically every major case in the Netherlands has been documented with Ida and 360 photography and or lighter scanning.

00;27;19;05 - 00;27;41;28
Alexander
So, there's a lot of material that we have an enormous amount, but the usual usage of it is, is lagging behind the amount that we collect. Because it's complicated to show to people. You need a very good laptop or computer, or you need to bring a high-end workstation to port or to a team. You need network capabilities to transmit data.

00;27;41;29 - 00;28;06;02
Alexander
You need to do it in a safe and legal way because we have several requirements on sensitive police data how we can transport that, and he gets to take that into accounts. So, it's very hard to get the data to people and then you still have to get them to understand this and to see the possibilities because police officers and the ones who do the tactical investigation are not technical personnel.

00;28;06;02 - 00;28;29;22
Alexander
So, they need things that they see use of and understand, and they need to understand it to be able to ask us questions so we can make specific simulations or face positions or missions for them. And with some people that clicked, they understood what we were doing, and we saw lots of repeat usage from them, but from other people not.

00;28;29;23 - 00;29;16;14
Alexander
So, we thought that our technologies might be something that helped people to use this data and to ask questions for specific products. So, we started to develop with that with the team, a fewer agency and our requirements with it were we have to be able to get this justice points out that we have. But as quickly as possible insights A Uh, something that the people we used to feel the point love and or a 3D model and or 360 photography and that essentially grew into what we are nowadays calling a police station PD That's basically the Dutch abbreviation for crime scene Central.

00;29;16;14 - 00;29;51;21
Alexander
Plus, the leaked very official term 3D is put behind it because it's telling a bit more about what it is, but it's basically a unity project that's preconfigured in which you can very quickly import a point cloud place. So, 360-degree pictures place normal for photographs, movies and you have a few words just you can run on a laptop, on a computer or on a Pixar device, for example, Oculus Quest or HTC Vive or any other head mounted device for that matter, all in the same pure.

00;29;51;21 - 00;30;19;21
Alexander
That's a built-in unity. And now it's going to continue is evolving. It used to be just a unity project, but now it's a project built in unity with its own editor. So, we now have an executable. If you start off and you can import your data, place it in an environment and use it, it's something that's very that's a very low use of thresholds for as well the person who makes the content as well as for the person who consumes the content.

00;30;20;21 - 00;30;23;14
Alexander
And we had some very interesting cases that you've done with them.

00;30;23;23 - 00;30;46;01
Eugene
Yeah. So, a couple of things that you brought up there. And one of them is the fact that, you know, you're, you said you make it easy to import some things and a lot of people don't appreciate that VR is the VR experience is heavily dependent on the quality of the models that you make. And so, a lot of times a couple of things that are come to my mind.

00;30;46;01 - 00;31;12;01
Eugene
So, the first one is you watch these advertisements and things like that on, on the Internet or whatever, and they say VR and they have these amazing views or whatever. That's all. Video production has nothing to do with the actual experience because when you actually try it, it's completely different. And the other thing is that it's not easy to take the raw data and then, you know, there's no magic button and all of a sudden it just shows up in VR.

00;31;12;01 - 00;31;35;01
Eugene
I mean, photogrammetry has an advantage because you're already creating a mesh model, but even then, you often want to repair, fix, optimize, like there's a lot of different things that you want to do to make the experience as good as possible. So, what can you tell me about the that part of the workflow for you? I mean, the fact that you're bringing in Scandi to just on its own I think is a fantastic idea.

00;31;35;08 - 00;31;44;15
Eugene
I think that, you know, it just it's the raw data. There's very little manipulation, but how do you bring in all the different pieces and is it a big effort?

00;31;45;09 - 00;32;17;01
Alexander
Well, basically we try to build adventuring Britain now. We're not there yet. It's not there. You still need some knowledge about how technology, how this technology works to prepare the data for usage. But we are striving to make it as automated as possible. But the better. You need to be aware that if you use this data, for example, a point out in 3D model, it points out it's something that you can walk in, look around in, but depending on the policy to point out, it's very splotchy.

00;32;17;01 - 00;32;42;01
Alexander
The color can be that lightning in front room photography is a thing. Polarization of photographs can be tricky, or even a very large feral x depending on the skin and just using you to be aware of all those things when you're preparing your data. But still, if you could point clouds, there are tools in point of visualization, renderers that can make a construction look very decent.

00;32;43;05 - 00;33;07;16
Alexander
If you if you just get the right point size, if you use some optimized lightning tricks, APC see, for example, in most of the examples, you can even mesh a point cloud or you can use photogrammetry software like the one from the one everybody uses. Try not to name brands too to mesh or point clouds and use that for a visualization.

00;33;07;28 - 00;33;35;00
Alexander
We try to. We used to make our own models and then I use model in the way that is defined as a simplified version of reality. Very schematic, very blocky 3D representation of volumes. That's what we used to use. We used to use Maya for it's now less than you see next. But okay, I can have everything which we try to steer away from that nowadays because there's a problem with that.

00;33;36;03 - 00;34;12;05
Alexander
Our core tenants are two things we make the things that we make need to be reproducible and they need to be verifiable. If I make a 3D model and you make a 3D model from the same point based on the same point, well there will be differences. Even if you use software that fits and fits on the cloud themselves, there's always will be menu differences and I need to be to guarantee to a fourth, to a lawyer, to a control expert that if he follows my working protocol, my guidelines, that he will get almost exactly the same result.

00;34;12;08 - 00;34;37;21
Alexander
Within that, the specific given tolerance. And I cannot do that with many remotely. So, we try to prefer software that can do the modeling for us. The results are not as pretty as a had made more, but I can guarantee it's accurate with accuracy within a certain tolerance and I can give a number with that in the biggest can give somebody a number you can check it against that number.

00;34;38;14 - 00;34;41;26
Eugene
Right. It's something quantitative that you can check. That's a good point.

00;34;42;21 - 00;35;05;24
Alexander
So, we prefer those kinds of techniques. And one of the upsides of the downside is, of course, the image both you will be slightly nuts, but the upside is if you have an automated process, you can automate it in such a way that if you have an important, for example, application, this, you can also use that automated process as a preprocessor for your data import and automate as much as you can.

00;35;06;09 - 00;35;10;20
Alexander
And that's something that we're still developing and working on, but it gets better and better.

00;35;11;08 - 00;35;28;05
Eugene
So is PDF Vision 3D. What is the what's the end game with P Division 3D? I mean, obviously you want to use it to bring in stuff like that, but is this something that's going to be proprietary to the Netherlands police? Is it something that will be open later for other people to use? Are you looking to sell it Like what's the what's the plan with it?

00;35;28;27 - 00;35;55;17
Alexander
The plan is to be open. It's something that's made with taxpayers’ money. So, we want you to open it up. It might be a slightly restrictive because one of the channels that we're looking at is the tool repository from Europol. That's one of the things that we're looking at because they can do the hosting and development if it gets GitLab, for example, which is being used for development, interpretation and such.

00;35;56;26 - 00;36;18;23
Alexander
So that's one of the venues that we're looking at. But there are ideas from if we can open it up, it can see a light because there's always the possibility that the police service like ours can be very organized. People are retired, people disappear and eventually, if it's just dependent on us, it will die. So, if we open it up, it will at least be available to many people.

00;36;18;23 - 00;36;47;15
Alexander
But we still need to work with it because it's built in unity. And in the beginning, we use some bought assets. Those are licensed and we need to remove those before we can open it up and distribute it to people because we want to do it in a legal way. If we are a police department. So, when you do things the right way and that's something we're still working, we had the fortune to hire a dedicated programmer for this.

00;36;47;15 - 00;37;08;16
Alexander
He's at this moment at the police academy in training will take a few months and then you can start full time working on position. The end game of application is, as I told you, it needs to be. If you were for three-dimensional data, that's easy to use for people. Also, easy to fill for people at different kinds of customers different have.

00;37;08;16 - 00;37;38;22
Alexander
But our main customer is an investigation team that wants to give you a location that's for the interest with or applications of it are for presentations, some training exercises. But training is mostly the Department of the Netherlands Police Academy, and they have their own suite of wonderful, absolutely wonderful training tools in VR. They started doing that during the Corona crisis to facilitate training at home that a wonderful job.

00;37;40;07 - 00;38;03;24
Alexander
But for some training exercises in some very specific cases, we tried to facilitate those also, and that's mostly for crime scene training exercises. For example, one of the collaborative exercises of the NC was done in position and we are looking at it to do it again this year for the for next level exercise, but also for people who need to exercise in specific environments.

00;38;04;29 - 00;38;31;02
Alexander
For example, for a kind of SWAT team that needs to be able to secure the building, a building of the Dutch government. They need help. They need to know how to approach a certain dangerous situation. And they can of course, we can train in the life building. That's always the best thing that you can do. But that building is not always attainable, and people will panic enough so you can do at least a part of the preparation.

00;38;31;02 - 00;39;00;10
Alexander
In VR, not everything is not representative of the real world because there's no physical contact which are environments from the senses, like smell hearing, which you can process, train a procedural, you can do procedural training in in before you do things and you can get your initial orientation in a environment. And that's what speed fishing is a very good tool for, because it's very quick to fuel.

00;39;00;24 - 00;39;20;21
Alexander
If I want to do an exercise and orientate myself in in building, I just can send somebody with a scanner to it or I can make a drone flying over a parking space in a parking lot and I can take pictures, calculate those to a 3D model or point clouds directly, put it in position, and within a day I have a wonderful presentation format.

00;39;21;19 - 00;39;26;11
Alexander
And that's what our end game is, making it as automated as possible.

00;39;26;22 - 00;39;41;29
Eugene
And you meet you raised some really good points about the value of VR, and I think that was something that I was going to ask you. So, you already mentioned training. I think training is a no brainer. It's great for like simulation and practicing and stuff like that. So that, that, that I think has absolutely good, great value.

00;39;42;04 - 00;40;01;02
Eugene
You also mentioned about well, we talked about a few other things and sometimes I get a little bit rubbed the wrong way because I hear people talk about VR, about how it's going to change everything in the world. And I believe it has some value, but I'm not as optimistic as some people. I think it has some things that it does really well.

00;40;01;02 - 00;40;15;29
Eugene
And there's some things that are just not going to replace like just hands on and other things. So, let's talk about some of the some of the main or key areas that where VR is most advantageous. Well, what would you say are some of the key things there?

00;40;17;15 - 00;40;38;26
Alexander
Definitely training. VR has been around for a very long time. I think in the eighties, the first systems were being developed or very large and bulky, but TVs were also large, bulky and expensive, and they caught on. NPR News. And if you look at the in the state of the industry right now, the big players Microsoft completely demolished their analytics team.

00;40;39;10 - 00;41;07;02
Alexander
Mater is downsizing by HTC is looking for a bit behind Oculus. I think sometimes they're catching up, sometimes not. But there's not very much development happening at those fields at the moment, except the industry is bits pulling back, so to speak. So, the technology it was the hype, it really was a hype. And a year ago we were on the top of the hype cycle and now it's settling.

00;41;07;02 - 00;41;37;22
Alexander
And so, in a few years we'll see some decent adult applications for VR, probably different than what you're thinking about now. But at this moment, training is most definitely the best application for VR. However, our application is something different. We can use it for training, but our application is mostly queuing locations. So, what we use it for specifically is for we have a crime scene investigation happening at the moment.

00;41;38;25 - 00;42;01;23
Alexander
During the forensic investigation or maybe before, maybe during, maybe slightly after we go in and document the scene. The investigators of that case cannot enter the scene and you want to inspect it as soon as possible, because in the first 24 hours, those are the most important to do to interview people, to get leads. And they want to shoot a crime scene.

00;42;01;23 - 00;42;25;02
Alexander
And we can do that with pictures. But, you know, if I take pictures, you take a picture of two different photo sets, and it's very hard to look at the crime scene through some somebody else's eyes. That's where 360 photography comes in. That that's it's a godsend in that case. But the art can be even better. We can build HDR environments for those people within 24 hours if we if we really work for it.

00;42;26;08 - 00;42;45;25
Alexander
And of course, you have to put in the hours, of course you have to process your data. But that's one of the main applications that we've seen to just give the detectives themselves a good overview of a crime scene. Also, to give steering information from, okay, no, you're still working on it, but we see something in the corner there that looks like a laptop.

00;42;46;10 - 00;43;11;01
Alexander
Can you get it for us in? Give us that. Or how many coats or hanging on in the hallway or how many cups on the table. It just gives a lot more information and context. It's not a substitute for the traditional means of documenting crime scenes. Never, ever, ever a replacement for photography in any way whatsoever. That's the first thing that you do, and it will be the main job of the documentary.

00;43;11;15 - 00;43;41;22
Alexander
But it's a nice addition in that in some cases can have some benefits. One of the other things that we use in choice for presentations in which there are cases in which a court needs to go to a location of a crime to inspect that location, that's very hard to do because it takes a lot of organizing. It's expensive to rent a location, make it safe, and that's not always possible, or in some cases, locations just not accessible because it's dangerous.

00;43;42;22 - 00;44;04;19
Alexander
Maybe it has collapsed, burned down, or it's completely renovated and a completely different building cost. Court cases take time. If somebody gets murdered in a house and it was his warehouse, the house will be sold, somebody else renovated, housing will be changed. No spaces. All you have is your original data. You can make a reconstruction or a fictionalization.

00;44;04;26 - 00;44;33;08
Alexander
In this case, we call it a reconstruction because it's just playing data and its heart measurement and stroke or ice. That's a reconstruction. And we can take the fourth Infantry and come to that location. And we have done that on several separate occasions to bring a court back to an otherwise inaccessible location, to inspect a crime scene and to make their own measurements in some cases, or make their own observations based on the testimony of two of the suspects.

00;44;34;09 - 00;44;55;03
Eugene
Yeah. And so sorry. So you make you read another point that I wanted to bring up, and that is the fact that you know what the investigators well, both for the investigators and for the court or for jurors or for judges, whoever is going to be immersed in this thing, being able or I think another thing that you're bringing about here is you can look around.

00;44;55;03 - 00;45;06;06
Eugene
So, your perspective where you can see whenever visibility, you know, what somebody said they saw or something like that is in question, this could be a good way. VR could be a good way to test that.

00;45;06;15 - 00;45;31;11
Alexander
No, true. Very much so, because the traditional way of taking a field of view of a witness is taking it for an image or a photograph, but it's just done from one point. If I have a window and I want to look outside of the window and I move from one point to the window for the other points, and I want to document what somebody can see, I also have to take into account that are also obstacles further away from the window.

00;45;31;25 - 00;45;56;23
Alexander
So, if you want to image or reconstruct all possibilities, you need to take a picture from every imaginable point between those two in that range and taking a photograph from every point is impossible because there are an infinite number of possibilities. So, the only way that you can do it is document the crime scene as much as possible to scan to take pictures and make.

00;45;56;29 - 00;46;21;03
Alexander
Let's just make their own observation. But even then, you still have a discrete sample size of your scanner, sort of still possibility in between those. It's not holistically captured, but it's as good as we can do it. But it's a technology now, and it's better than a picture. One of the prime examples of that is that the field of view of a driver in a car.

00;46;21;26 - 00;46;48;01
Alexander
Why did a bicyclist disappear behind a frame of the car? Is it really possible and you can verify if it was possible for the driver that he could have had a line of sight on that location? That does not say anything about if he actually saw the person that he actually. Right. Translation is actually aware of the person.

00;46;48;07 - 00;47;03;21
Alexander
But you can verify if it's possible or impossible to actually have a line of sight from a given location. You can even move to front, try to look around something, try to look at your mirrors. And that's something that can be helpful for a judge to make his ruling.

00;47;04;10 - 00;47;23;10
Eugene
Yeah, for sure. And do you ever so, for example, like, let's say, for example, you're building a case for the investigators to look at. Do you ever do anything where you do some form of analysis where, let's say you can overlay a bullet trajectory path or for example, you could say, well, we did some kind of a bloodstain pattern analysis and incorporate that.

00;47;23;17 - 00;47;30;13
Eugene
So, the results of an analysis inside of the VR, like in the context of the crime scene, is that's something that you do as well.

00;47;31;02 - 00;47;57;02
Alexander
In some cases, yes, but mostly no, because we have several rules that we have to apply to, luckily. And those rules tell us that you can only make an analysis if you're an expert in that specific field. So, you have to be a certified expert in the specific field to make that analysis. And we have some several experts in our team within some fields with traffic accidents, boating accidents, etc...

00;47;58;09 - 00;48;19;09
Alexander
But most of the time we demand that if you visualize something in a document, the crime scene you have to do to make a visualization from that, it has to be based on a report with somebody signature below it who does this myself. He or her is an expert in the field. He or she makes this analysis, and this is the results.

00;48;19;25 - 00;48;37;16
Alexander
And the thing that I visualize, I showed it to them. They give their approval in that. And he also signed for this and then we can use this. So, it is a very long and, long process for them to do this. It's pure fiction.

00;48;38;08 - 00;48;58;22
Eugene
You mentioned the word reconstruction. And I want to ask you this, because this came up in a conversation that I had a couple of months ago at a conference. And it was the difference between what is a reconstruction and what is a recreation. And sometimes people in, you know, use the word reconstruction when they're doing recreation or something different.

00;48;58;22 - 00;49;03;18
Eugene
So, is there a way that you sort of define the two in your mind or how you separate the two?

00;49;04;26 - 00;49;30;29
Alexander
Yeah, but everybody has their own definitions for those two things because in different contexts they mean different things, especially if you take translation from language one language to the other into account. Would we make the difference between that? A reconstruction is based on hard measurement data initialization can be based on, for example, a witness statement that can be soft data that is not verifiable within a certain range.

00;49;31;01 - 00;49;54;11
Alexander
It's something that somebody put on paper, but you don't know if it's true or not or false or a hypothetical scenario, and that that's the difference that we draw. So, if he's talking about the reconstruction, it what would we see in the reconstruction is something that we have hard data for, of course, within a certain range because measuring something is approaching a certain accuracy.

00;49;54;11 - 00;50;02;23
Alexander
So, it's never 100%. We have a very good idea of that percentage of accuracy. And if we're talking about official ization, we don't have that.

00;50;03;11 - 00;50;26;07
Eugene
That's interesting. Yeah, I usually that that is part of it for me as well as my definition. But I also incorporate what it's going to be used for and if I'm going to be proving something or trying to say somebody is guilty or somebody was at this location and they fired the shots based on that work, then I also to think about it, if I'm using it to prove something, it's reconstructed.

00;50;26;29 - 00;50;51;11
Eugene
But like you said, you don't have hard data or maybe it's just demonstrative. You want people just to see the crime scene. You just want to do a walk through or something. I'm not really proving anything, but it's helping the court somehow to, you know, to get a better sense of the crime scene or something like that in that case, it may be more of still maybe hard evidence, but I'm not really using it as to prove anything per se.

00;50;51;11 - 00;51;09;18
Eugene
So, I don't have an analyst coming in and doing bullet trajectories and things like that. I think that's also maybe an important part that has to be considered too. But yeah, very, very interesting. Which leads us to since we're talking about Cord and VR and everything else, is some of the cases. And one thing that the Netherlands police does really well is they're all over the media.

00;51;09;18 - 00;51;28;23
Eugene
So, you've got YouTube videos, you've got new clippings and news and anyone that does a search. Now, unfortunately, a lot of it isn't Dutch, but you can just sit the translation thing and you can get a pretty good sense of what's going on. So, I want to ask you about court cases and where has this been used so far and how has it been used?

00;51;29;21 - 00;51;56;15
Alexander
Well, there's two court cases that are very nice to talk about. One of the places was something of a school, the Silbert murder. And it was a retired couple that was making a guilt trip, which are Silbert at some point near a country near the coastline. One of the couples died and the husband of this woman was suspected of her murder.

00;51;56;15 - 00;52;22;24
Alexander
And he told the court that she was murdered by pirates who went came on board our ship, and I was beaten, and she was beaten, and she eventually died by stimulation. And it was a very chaotic story. Understandable, of course, if you're beaten, then your wife is being strangled. Of course, everybody would be confused. But then the story was a bit strange.

00;52;23;07 - 00;52;46;10
Alexander
How could he have seen or not have seen something? And the space inside a small sailing yacht is very restrictive. And can certain things be possible to do with several people in a very small space. And the court had no idea, and it was not possible to actually visit the sailing yacht because it was in police property somewhere outside of Europe.

00;52;46;10 - 00;53;11;25
Alexander
So, it was very hard for the court to go there and deal with this. Luckily, our two colleagues from a forensic service, one of the regional forensic services, were allowed to go to this boat and inspected. We long them a lighter scanner and instructed them in how to use it. And luckily nowadays someone makes it so simple that almost everybody can use it and very smart colleagues, or we can just search very well.

00;53;12;05 - 00;53;43;17
Alexander
But I think we are first very, very smart police. And they made excellent lighter skins in this boat. No, it's in the water. They make excellent photo series and using those image shows, we were able to get a very good point out from the interior of the ship and make a 3D reconstruction based on the data and put it in position and present this to the court in such a way to get a chair, which was, of course, pointing to a certain location where somebody was sitting.

00;53;43;17 - 00;54;07;05
Alexander
Everybody would sit on the chair and look around, see how the stars were. At some point, the lawyer of the suspect wanted to view a few figurines in a certain pose, and we were able to just make it very quickly because one of the things that we had in position was a mannequin like puppets that was opposable inside of the things.

00;54;07;14 - 00;54;27;19
Alexander
It's something that's a real standard. But we had a building. One of the small differences, they did something really wonderful with it in Sweden. I think, and it is this way we were able to visualize certain situations and the court was able to make our own observations in this this small space. And eventually this man was set free.

00;54;29;08 - 00;54;40;20
Alexander
And so, I think then the 3D model in the theater presentation was one of the things that the force used to get a clearer picture of this situation. That's also what they said in one of two articles.

00;54;41;02 - 00;55;00;20
Eugene
Now logistically, the, you know, implementing VR. So, for example, here in North America where it's when it's a jury-based trial or something like that, you've got a lot of people that you have to try and figure out how to get all these headsets or whatever. So, in your case, though, you had one set up and the system is different in the Netherlands.

00;55;00;20 - 00;55;06;02
Eugene
So okay, so you're dealing with less people. I'm guessing, right?

00;55;07;02 - 00;55;07;09
Alexander
Yeah.

00;55;07;20 - 00;55;19;16
Eugene
Yeah. Okay. So, there's is there more than one judge or is there typically one judge? And then obviously the two lawyers and how many more people get to sit in and experiences?

00;55;19;25 - 00;55;40;01
Alexander
It depends on the type of force that you’re and that you're in front of. But if you're talking about a large finance crime, it's something to put in. If I was a camera, that means there's three judges who preside over the case. We don't do not have a jury system. Of course, a jury system has its advantages and disadvantages.

00;55;40;10 - 00;56;09;02
Alexander
And the same with our system. No, there's no perfect justice system in the world. But we do our best. Yeah, for sure. In Canada and everybody else. But we just have three judges one in this case, only one defense lawyer, one prosecutor described courts tried and several expert witnesses who and this, of course, himself went through this. So, it does take a large part of a data to show everybody this.

00;56;09;27 - 00;56;33;26
Alexander
And you also have to take into account safety issues. I one of them this, of course, if it's a violent suspect, you're giving him something that he can throw in the courtroom that might not be a smart idea, but also emotional aspects. I have seen people who became very emotional and started to faint when they were fleeing a crime scene through the art.

00;56;34;17 - 00;56;53;29
Alexander
So, you also have to take that into account. And our expenses, at least 10% of people cannot handle the images that you see in VR because they get certain go motion sickness, just become dizzy, disorientated. And you also have to take that into account. People sometimes just fall, and it's happened.

00;56;54;15 - 00;57;16;05
Eugene
Yeah, well, I've seen it because it happened here at the office. I had somebody was trying out a VR, like a game or whatever, and they put their hand on it to lean on a counter thinking it was there and it wasn't there. And so, you know, you just you get mixed up in your mind. Right? And think we talked about this before too, like the feeling that of heights.

00;57;16;05 - 00;57;29;16
Eugene
So, for example, you can actually somebody can take you to the edge of a cliff or a mountain and you look down and you know, you're standing on the ground, but your eyes and your brain are registering something else. And I'm sure you've had that experience.

00;57;30;08 - 00;57;56;10
Alexander
The exact same experience. Be One of the careers ending moves that I did was putting our No new division hat on the top of the Empire State Building with it now, without knowing that she was afraid of heights. Not a smart thing to do, but it went okay. But I want us to demo something Mostly gift to people are putting in a demo on top of a large lighthouse and then making will look over the edge and pushing them off.

00;57;58;03 - 00;58;16;22
Alexander
You know, it's not real, but if you're falling down and you see yourself falling down, you will try to catch yourself. When you when you land on the ground, it's an inferno. Literal reaction is something that everybody does, even if you know it's fake and you're not feeling yourself falling. So, VR is a different experience than when you're looking at a screen.

00;58;16;22 - 00;58;47;14
Alexander
It's also more immersive. It can bring memories and we're also looking in there for using it as a maybe a tool to assist in a guided derogations and location. Also looking into motion capture. One of the things we also have in in our VR module in Precision is that we can visit with six people simultaneously in either the same room or different locations as long as they're on the same network.

00;58;47;14 - 00;58;59;14
Alexander
And in some cases, we also need. That's true. But generally, I just saw one of the comments that regarding the getting a flock of cats.

00;58;59;21 - 00;59;00;05
Eugene
Yeah.

00;59;00;18 - 00;59;22;07
Alexander
If several people in inside of the same room, you need to be very aware that people will eventually touch each other unless you have very good motion tracking. And this is something that we're looking into now. There are several systems, very expensive, but so far, the HTC just announced one new system. Yes. And I think that looks very promising.

00;59;22;29 - 00;59;43;06
Alexander
And there are several other solutions that we're looking into. We do have a motion capture rig based on a large suit with two trackers on it, but it's almost impossible to put six people at the same time in it because it loses calibration very quickly. But generally, it's better just to put people in separate rooms and make them work in a safe environment.

00;59;43;06 - 01;00;11;09
Alexander
We even experimented with those treadmills that you also see for VR use, the several brands being most of them consist of a plastic bowl that you're walking in on silicone soled shoes. The developer that was developing those days for us used that as a warmup for his powerlifting sessions because using those systems is extremely tiring.

01;00;12;22 - 01;00;23;10
Alexander
It's very hard to move, it's very thin reel. It doesn't really work very well, just walking rather flesh flat surfaces better.

01;00;23;23 - 01;00;35;01
Eugene
This is the system that you're talking about that it's like a it's a portion of a sphere, like a small portion of a of a sphere. And basically, your feet slide. There's no rollers or anything, is there? Or if you just slide.

01;00;35;25 - 01;00;56;06
Alexander
There are different systems. Some systems do use rollers, some just use roller skates that are very, very advanced or moving floors. But our system would need was a half plastic bowl, which you slide, which it's very slippery shoes. But even then, yes, it's very you really have to put some force behind this to make your feet move.

01;00;56;29 - 01;01;13;16
Eugene
Yeah. So, let me ask you, so do you think it makes sense then to, for example, do something in three degrees of freedom as opposed to full motion and moving around and six degrees of freedom? So, for example, here putting a jury into six degrees of freedom is a lot easier because at least you can guide them through.

01;01;13;24 - 01;01;35;06
Eugene
You know, you sit, you bring them to one position, and they can look around, but they can't move around. And so that might be a good a good intermediate step before going with for, you know, for VR and six degrees of freedom, because there are like there are some technical challenges with getting 12 or ten people inside of the same scene and all being able to move around.

01;01;35;20 - 01;01;38;00
Eugene
Yes. So yeah, have thought about that.

01;01;38;19 - 01;01;58;26
Alexander
If it needs to be done, it needs to be done. It's as simple as that. If it needs to be done, we will make it happen somehow. It might be difficult. It might not be, but it has to happen at some things. But it is easier to put somebody in the three-degree degrees of freedom environment. And that's probably the best way of using VR on a large scale.

01;02;00;06 - 01;02;28;16
Alexander
For example, we have a team in Rotterdam. One of my colleagues, New Simple got in today. They, they, they make 360-degree images on crime scenes and directly put them in a smartphone and use a smartphone holder through cardboard or some other small or very cheap ones. So, make from plastic for a few euros and you can use or use two-dimensional VR on a smartphone, and it works surprisingly well.

01;02;28;22 - 01;02;54;01
Alexander
You get a very good image even if it's 2D. But nowadays you also see the stereo graphic panoramic cameras like the Pro Insta360 Pro, for example. That works very well, and you get a phone shoot, which we were talking about earlier. People understand pictures, they understand a photograph and it basically looks like very large few masses. You know, the children's story, cancer.

01;02;54;09 - 01;03;20;13
Alexander
We were small with still graphic. Yes. And that that's something that people interested in can use and they can use a good practice in any good smartphone. And every police officer has a good smartphone. So, one of the things that we are investing in is not only making visualizations, but also trying to develop and provide infrastructure. It's not something that we can do on our own.

01;03;20;13 - 01;03;46;01
Alexander
There are several developers in the Netherlands busy with this recording secure storage and you because we need a project that at this moment, we have a very well working concept of a panoramic image. You're on the police network that is accessible for any police officer in the nose that is attached to a specific case and has a right to view data on that case because our data protection laws are very strict.

01;03;47;11 - 01;04;13;23
Alexander
But The infrastructure is there for panoramic images and the next step is using PD Fusion as a web based viewer before we have to rip out a point cloud functionality from it because web based protocols or it is possible, but our network might be a bit overloaded, which we're trying to make different viewers for that. So that's also something that we are developing or are helping to develop.

01;04;14;14 - 01;04;29;06
Eugene
Let me ask you about some of the risks of VR, because there's obviously some benefits, but there's also some risks. Right. And yeah, so what do you see as some of the risks and maybe how we can mitigate some of those risks?

01;04;30;10 - 01;04;52;21
Alexander
Well, in another lens, I don't know how it's in North America, but in the Netherlands, there is still a discussion, if you use us photographs in our reports, how this affects people and it's talking about photographs and that this this discussion is still being held. And now we made a switch to VR, which is even more immersive than just a picture.

01;04;52;21 - 01;05;17;12
Alexander
In some case, we have 3D models that are terribly detailed and show gruesome scenes, and if we don't know what a picture does with somebody's emotional which are reasoning and their decision for me from then, how can we say that we actually know what VR model will do if it's realistic? And those are areas that we need to be very aware of.

01;05;18;00 - 01;05;46;00
Alexander
Besides that, if you are using VR, you need to be very careful about your phone and systems, your scaling issues, accuracy in tracking on frame rates. There are also all kinds of different levels of technical issues we need to be aware of that can influence your, your, how you observe things and know, for example, the color of the screen.

01;05;46;00 - 01;06;10;10
Alexander
How can I calibrate the screen of a digital display like a head mounted device? There is no technology for that yet. Different systems have different kinds of risks. Is that a useful projection? Some of it very high resolution of some are not, and some people have really troubling problems with it. Some people get nauseous with low frame rate and there's all kinds of problems, too many to actually name them all.

01;06;10;10 - 01;06;34;18
Alexander
And we have very little knowledge about those of course, that knowledge will be built in through the years. I've only experienced them, but I think we still need a lot of research in that. And that's where students come in because I'm doing that myself. Now. We have lots of students from different schools that that need to write to stations, and these are fantastic subjects for them to pick up.

01;06;35;13 - 01;07;00;29
Eugene
Yeah, it's a fascinating area. You know, actually, I'll ask you about your colleague and unfortunately, she I believe she passed away a little while ago, but she was doing some research on the effects of sort of visual media and such on interrogations and things like that. And that is a big risk because one thing that I have always been concerned about is, let's say, for example, somebody doesn't recall something very well.

01;07;01;04 - 01;07;19;06
Eugene
You put them back into a scenario and all of a sudden, they re-imagine something with a memory that didn't happen. And they re envision, you know, sometimes you ever had a friend tell an old story and it's like, no, that's not how it happened. And let me tell you how it happened. Right? So that is a risk, I think with VR too.

01;07;20;19 - 01;07;26;21
Eugene
So. Yeah, but, but can you tell me about some of the research that your colleagues done and some of the things that maybe you think should be worked on?

01;07;27;12 - 01;08;09;12
Alexander
She was not our colleague. She was independent researcher at the University of Law. And Dr. Huberty, from the same tragic loss, died 30, 73 months ago. She did a lot of but the subjects that we're talking about, about how about someone's perception, how he or she use an image based on how it's brought presented to you. For the example that Dr. An always used was the cover of Time magazine featuring OJ Simpson when he was just apprehended, was a cover in which he was under fish official eyes with a black bar over his eyes.

01;08;09;23 - 01;08;34;01
Alexander
And the image was very brownish and very dark. So, you were looking at it. It looks scary, but that does something to your perception about a person. You're not looking at a person, you’re looking at a criminal at that point. But the court was still in session. He was not he was still a suspect. There was no verdict yet.

01;08;34;16 - 01;08;55;12
Alexander
But the public opinion at that moment is against somebody. And I totally leave it in the middle of it. If he is guilty or not, that's not my place to say. But the that the way that he was socialized, and that moment influenced people. And will also influence a jury also influenced a court. And that makes all the difference.

01;08;56;04 - 01;09;20;14
Alexander
One of the examples that she uses is, for example, you have a person that was mistreated on the street and there was a big fight, and somebody was hit a few times in the face. If I have a medical description, a medical report about the injuries that this person has, and it's a very clinical description, it's very accurate about this person had several hematomas in his or her face and is prone to looks, Lou.

01;09;20;25 - 01;09;45;26
Alexander
It's about ten centimeters in diameter. That's a very clean, reasonable representation. But do I put a picture of somebody who's in three faces, black and blue, and this person you get sympathy for this person instead of absolutely looking at Colfax? This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what side of the bench you are that you are influencing.

01;09;45;26 - 01;10;09;21
Alexander
And we try to be as objective as possible. We try to find truth; we try to present the facts. And where is the did to the point that this flips to the other side and how can we do justice to the truth and present a picture to somebody without influencing somebody to a certain side because a judge in the notes has to make their own observations and he or she draws conclusions.

01;10;09;21 - 01;10;41;27
Alexander
We don't do this right. Just try to present things they are, but some things in some people can make somebody not objective. And that's something the doctor from saying this very of to and the same goes with PR techniques depending on the kind of device it using the kind of feedback that you have some sit you play influences that you're missing from the scene itself because some senses you cannot use light for a piece of grass before sunset.

01;10;41;27 - 01;10;52;11
Alexander
During the smells that you're missing can make things prettier or more than there actually are. Those are still needing research.

01;10;52;28 - 01;11;05;26
Eugene
Yeah, for sure. I have two more questions that I have to ask you. The first one is let's talk about full body composition, where you reconstruct a full body, not just a face, but a full body. Can you tell me about some of the work you're doing there?

01;11;06;09 - 01;11;08;27
Alexander
Ooh, that's very hard. That's very hard.

01;11;09;08 - 01;11;09;18
Eugene
Okay.

01;11;10;04 - 01;11;31;18
Alexander
I don't think there are many people in the world actually doing that. However, what we are trying to do is if you have multiple ACR, we need some kind of representation of looking at someone's location and we're trying to look at cheap motion capture sensors for that so that the exact proportions of somebody's deformations of skin, etc. are not important in those pictures.

01;11;31;18 - 01;12;09;28
Alexander
So that's one of the things that we are actually looking at. But one of the things that we also facilitate is forensic. So visualizing the powerful people through someone's body and in a multidisciplinary team, try to test several scenarios are brought up by the different fourth parties to use the scene testing between scenarios based on the and the hard evidence that they're in those cases, we need to be able to post the body in a specific way to show, okay, if this body is sending this post, I can make an infinite amount of photos to make this fit.

01;12;10;09 - 01;12;31;25
Alexander
But I can that if this person standing here, I can absolutely say certain that it's impossible that the shot went this way because this witness tells us this specific and specific statement and this specific statement, we can absolutely say that it can never happen. You can't make it fit in another way, but this cannot happen at this moment.

01;12;31;25 - 01;12;58;29
Alexander
You can only do that based on skeletal data that's processed by forensic radiology, that's supported by pathologists. We also support from the Node Science Institute that support put a bullet struck and residue for the technical of weapons, how bullets behave in tissue, etc... We just visualized data. But it's a wish of us to also be able to get the complete volume.

01;12;59;15 - 01;13;18;24
Alexander
Besides this consulted the tissue data and also make that the form. But there is no real objective way to do it yet. And the several problems with that, it's very hard to measure somebody. You think this laser scanner for example, but you only get the outside dimensions of somebody, and different kinds of tissue behave in a different way.

01;13;19;25 - 01;13;45;05
Alexander
It makes sense when you get inside that person's skin laying down and tissue falls towards gravity and that gives a defamation you mentioned. So, you don't get the person standing up. That's a very, very big problem and a several different things because a dead body is not the same as a living body. So full body recognition is something that actually might be impossible, at least at this point.

01;13;45;05 - 01;13;49;16
Alexander
We cannot do it. And if somebody has any ideas how to do it, I would love to hear from you.

01;13;50;28 - 01;13;54;13
Eugene
I'll leave that in as an open question. I want to ask you.

01;13;54;13 - 01;13;54;22
Alexander
What.

01;13;54;22 - 01;14;06;12
Eugene
What now, looking forward, what are some of the next steps? You've got PD Vision 3D that seems to be taking a lot of your time. So, what does the future look like in the short term? The next two, two years or so?

01;14;08;09 - 01;14;44;12
Alexander
Too much. Too much. The big thing I think is probably the same as everybody. There are several very interesting developments going on. The big one is, of course, machine learning models and such. The thing is I'm actually very interested in the use automating as much of our data processing as possible. So, we actually want to build a network infrastructure in which it's possible for somebody to upload their data from the crime scene, a central server, and get a complete panoramic and 3-D presentation will roll out in precision at a bench.

01;14;44;12 - 01;15;14;17
Alexander
We need some automatic processing, so segmentation on point gloves needs to be automated. And that means that we need some very advanced pieces of photogrammetry based on 360-degree images to place them on a map. And we try to develop those kinds of things and look into if it's if it's possible to do it yourself, other things that are touching for, for example, it's a wonderful thing that that really makes working with complex software very easy for a lot of people.

01;15;15;23 - 01;15;32;25
Alexander
One of the problems that I really like to use, for example, is Blender. And it's amazing what you can do with ketchup just to generate specific tooling, get in some cases just by giving a few prompts and describe what you need, and the complete Python script rolls out. Maybe I to editor to some ways, but it works really well.

01;15;32;25 - 01;16;01;29
Alexander
It was a colleague in Germany that actually made his own shotgun reconstruction full in blender using techy beauty and really wonderful stuff. So those are interesting techniques that we're looking into. So mostly the workflow because surveying hasn't changed in a few thousand years and basically all the principles are the same for the processing of the data and into the first rotation data and extracting specific data that needs to be done by experts at this moment.

01;16;01;29 - 01;16;26;10
Alexander
And in the Netherlands, because you have this very large team of people who are collecting data, we try to support those people by trying to automate as much as possible in future. And that's my goal for the next few years. Try from what data can we extract in an automatic, repeatable and checkable way to make this this work better and faster, more efficient.

01;16;26;28 - 01;16;31;01
Eugene
Next. So, Alex, can I put up your LinkedIn profile just so people can, see?

01;16;31;16 - 01;16;41;03
Alexander
Yes. And if anybody has any ideas about full body reconstruction in a forensic, dependable way, then please contact me. And you're probably also.

01;16;41;17 - 01;17;01;26
Eugene
Well, I plan to contact you and talk about it a little bit. And I hope to I hope to see you sometime in the near future. Hopefully, as you know, we'll be able to get together and chat. It's always a very promising discussion with you. And yeah, and I say this sincerely, I always enjoy talking to you. You're just really knowledgeable, always great ideas and everything else.

01;17;01;26 - 01;17;09;26
Eugene
And yeah, just a great a great resource and a great person to have to bounce ideas off. So, thank you very much.

01;17;10;11 - 01;17;21;27
Alexander
And I thank you for this conversation. And of course, we also appreciate any input that you have and the wonderful things that you're researching and all the research output that you make and your students. So, the respect goes both ways.

01;17;22;11 - 01;17;33;13
Eugene
Excellent. Well, Alex, hang back for a bit. I'm going to come back, and I'll chat with you. Thank you. Look, we're going to be back soon, folks. I want to wish you all a great Thursday and see you soon. Bye.