EP 83 | Dr. Rachel Touroo | Veterinary Forensics

Veterinary Forensics | EP 83 | Dr. Rachel Touroo 

Dr. Rachel Touroo joined the ASPCA in 2012 as the director of its Veterinary Forensics program and is currently the senior director of Veterinary Forensic Sciences. In this role, Dr. Touroo oversees the ASPCA Veterinary Forensic Science Center, assists law enforcement with suspected animal cruelty cases throughout the United States, develops and carries out novel research in the area of veterinary forensics, and teaches Veterinary Forensic Medicine for the University of Florida, College of Veterinary Medicine and Veterinary Medicolegal Investigations for Florida International University, where she holds courtesy faculty appointments. Dr. Touroo has assisted with hundreds of animal cruelty cases throughout the U.S. and has been qualified as an expert witness on dozens of occasions in a variety of states, as well as in federal court.  Join us as we discuss the importance of veterinary forensics and the work that the ASCPA is doing to assist law enforcement in investigations.

Originally aired on: Wednesday April 5th, 2023

Transcript

00;00;27;08 - 00;00;56;12
Eugene
Hi everyone, it’s Eugene here. And welcome to forensics talks. This is going to be episode 83. And my guest today is Dr. Rachel Touroo and we're going to be speaking about veterinary forensics. I want to start off before I talk about Dr. Touroo, just as a little bit of an introduction. And we're going to be talking about, obviously animals and things like that and the relationship between humans and animals goes back thousands of years.

00;00;56;12 - 00;01;19;14
Eugene
And throughout history, you know, animals have played a significant role in our lives from providing food and clothing to, you know, companionship, entertainment and animals have been essential to our survival and well-being. So, you know, taking care of animals and protecting them is essential for several reasons. And first and foremost, it's our moral obligation as humans to treat animals with respect and kindness.

00;01;20;02 - 00;01;45;19
Eugene
Animals are sentient beings. They feel pain, fear, happiness, just like we do. And we have a responsibility to ensure that they're not subjected to any unnecessary suffering. So, in addition to our moral obligation, you know, protecting animals also protects us in or benefits us in several ways. Animals provide us with food, medicine and other essential resources. They play a crucial role in maintaining the ecological balance of our planet.

00;01;45;28 - 00;02;03;15
Eugene
And, you know, even though we're going to be talking today about maybe animals that are closer to us in terms of like pets, you know, like dogs and cats and things like that, If you think about the fine balance of something like bees and what would happen if the bees disappeared or whatever, it would be an absolute disaster.

00;02;03;24 - 00;02;28;17
Eugene
So, without animals, you know, our ecosystems would collapse, and it could lead to a domino effect. So, we need to be careful, and we need to take care of the animals on this planet. But I think even more importantly are just as important, are that animals provide us with emotional support and companionship. Many people form deep bonds with their pets, and it helps them to reduce stress, anxiety and loneliness.

00;02;28;24 - 00;02;55;06
Eugene
So, animals play a critical role in therapy and rehabilitation programs, helping people overcome physical and emotional challenges. But our society has evolved. And so, as our treatment of animals has evolved as well, many animals are now subjected to cruel and inhumane treatment, often for the sake of profit or entertainment. And so, the mistreatment not only harms the animals, but it has a negative impact on our society as a whole.

00;02;55;13 - 00;03;14;15
Eugene
And that's what we're going to be talking about today. I've been wanting to do this topic for some time now, and I'm really happy that I'm glad that Rachel is here at this time. And it's sort of timely as well, because April 1st is kicking off prevention of cruelty to animals Month. And April 8th is National Dogfighting Awareness Day.

00;03;14;24 - 00;03;44;00
Eugene
So, it's the talk is happening at the right time. So let me introduce the speaker and that is Dr. Rachel Tura, and she joined the ASPCA in 2012 as the director of its veterinary forensics program, and she's currently the senior director of veterinary forensic sciences. Dr. Tara oversees the ASPCA Veterinary Forensic Science Center, assists law enforcement with suspected animal cruelty cases throughout the United States, develops and carries out research in the area of veterinary forensics.

00;03;44;04 - 00;04;07;24
Eugene
And she teaches veterinary forensic medicine for the University of Florida College of Veterinary Medicine and Veterinary Medical Egypt Medical legal investigations for Florida International University, where she holds a courtesy faculty appointment. She's assisted with hundreds of animal cruelty cases throughout the U.S., and she's been qualified as an expert witness on dozens of occasions in a variety of states, as well as in federal court.

00;04;08;06 - 00;04;35;02
Eugene
She's a past president of the International Veterinary Forensic Sciences Association, a member of the ASB Crime Scene Investigation Consensus Body, and she's also an active affiliate member of the USEC Organizational Organization of Scientific Area Committees for Forensic Science. And she's part of other things as well. She lectures at national conferences. She's doing a lot of teaching. There's a lot there to her background, and we're going to be discussing this with her.

00;04;35;02 - 00;04;38;05
Eugene
So let me bring her in here. Hey, Rachel, there you are. How are you?

00;04;38;17 - 00;04;39;19
Rachel
Good. How are you?

00;04;40;05 - 00;05;03;26
Eugene
I'm great. Thanks so much for being here. I'm really glad we finally got to work this out. Oh, I should say thank you to this as well. She's been super helpful in organizing it, so I listen, if you're out there. Thanks. Thanks so much for making this happen. I want to start by going back in time. And for example, you know, when I was when I was a kid, I had a farm up until I was about 12.

00;05;04;03 - 00;05;25;02
Eugene
And it wasn't animals. It was just like crops and things like that. But we also had a creek when I was a kid too. And animals played just a large part of my life as a child, and I had all kinds of animals as pets. So, I had snakes, I had turtles, I had bats, I had I had pigeons, I had rabbits.

00;05;25;16 - 00;05;45;09
Eugene
I had all kinds of stuff. And so, they were very important to me, even to the point where I was considering becoming like a veterinary doctor at one point. And so, yeah, like I had a best friend as a kid and that's what we did. We just, you know, animals or whatever. So, Ron, if you're out there, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

00;05;45;23 - 00;05;57;08
Eugene
But I'm curious what you and did you have like, was it something that was just ingrained in you from a child you just had a passion for animals or was this something that happened later on? How did how did that come about for you?

00;05;57;20 - 00;06;23;19
Rachel
I grew up with a strong passion for animals. I begged my parents for dogs, cats. We had guinea pigs, birds, all kinds of pets growing up. And then later in my teen years, we had horses. So, I grew up on Horse Farm and showed horses all over the United States. And I really thought going into vet school that I was going to be an equine theory geologist and breed horses.

00;06;24;07 - 00;06;30;03
Rachel
And then, you know, life takes a turn. And I realized that I was better suited in animal welfare.

00;06;30;20 - 00;06;39;18
Eugene
And so was this. At what point in your life was this already when you were sort of in high school and university when at that university?

00;06;39;18 - 00;06;56;29
Rachel
So, when I was in vet school, it just became apparent to me. Prior to that school I did a lot of research in animal welfare, and I really missed that. Once I got into that school, I really wanted to focus on animal welfare and making an impact for animals.

00;06;56;29 - 00;07;02;01
Eugene
Okay, so did you start working? Where did you start working? Like when you graduated, what was your sort of your first role?

00;07;02;10 - 00;07;23;10
Rachel
I was in private practice, so I really wanted to go into equine practice, but I lived in the city and realized that if I wanted to work on horses, it was going to be quite a few in and out of the city every day. So, I ended up doing small animal medicine and I learned a lot. But I did really miss the animal welfare piece.

00;07;23;24 - 00;07;40;19
Rachel
So, after a year of private practice, I ended up applying for a job with the Department of Agriculture in Virginia and because it was advertised as this animal welfare position. But that's really what kind of catapulted me into the veterinary forensic field that I am now in.

00;07;41;12 - 00;07;48;26
Eugene
Okay. And then after that, so the ASPCA, you started in 2012, 2012.

00;07;48;26 - 00;08;18;16
Rachel
Yeah. So, it's with the Department of Agriculture in Virginia for about four years. And I was actually working a case with them with a federal entity was a dogfighting case, and they had called in the ASPCA to do behavioral evaluation on the dogs. And that, unbeknownst to me, was a working interview with the ASPCA. And shortly after that case, they offered me a position with them to do the work nationally, and I couldn't turn down that offer.

00;08;18;16 - 00;08;21;00
Rachel
So ended up with the SPCA.

00;08;21;25 - 00;08;27;04
Eugene
Okay. Got it. And has your role changed with the ASPCA since you started?

00;08;27;17 - 00;08;55;06
Rachel
It's grown immensely. When I first started, it was just myself and one crime scene analyst, and we were running all over the country assisting law enforcement with cases. And now we have a team of people. It's just amazing how it's grown. So, I oversee for three veterinarians. I'm the fourth veterinarian at our facility. We now have two crime scene analysts who come from the human world to now do animal crime scenes.

00;08;55;06 - 00;09;03;03
Rachel
And then we also have a veterinary forensic technician. So instead of just the two of us, we now have a team of seven, including myself.

00;09;03;20 - 00;09;24;19
Eugene
No, excellent. I wanted to ask or at least talk about the like sort of set the stage for what we're going to talk about, which is the problem. Right. And so, you know, we're talking about animal cruelty, we’re talking about different aspects. And this is not about, you know, you look over your neighbor's yard, you're like, oh, you know, he's not feeding him that the right brand of food or something like that, like this.

00;09;24;19 - 00;09;47;18
Eugene
This is more about more serious stuff where there's we're talking about neglect; we’re talking about mistreatment. Examples like people, for example, leaving just like things you would do wouldn't do with a child. You wouldn't leave a, you know, animals in an unheated car or an air-conditioned location or something like that. And intentional cruelty. So how can I say this?

00;09;48;01 - 00;09;55;26
Eugene
I'm curious about what you've seen, for example, in the past and today, and has the problem gotten worse?

00;09;57;02 - 00;10;28;03
Rachel
So, I would say that the problem has gotten worse. I think that more people are now aware of these issues and doing something about these issues. Unfortunately, we don't have a good way to track these type types of cases. Back in 2016, I believe the FBI started tracking animal cruelty through neighbors. They understood that there was a strong connection between animal cruelty and other forms of violence.

00;10;28;12 - 00;10;54;02
Rachel
They actually categorized animal cruelty into four different categories. And I really like how they categorize them, and I like to think about them in those four categories. And those are severe neglect and abandonment. Second is physical abuse or non-accidental injury, which is the term we've taken from the child abuse realm. And then there's also sexual abuse and organized abuse.

00;10;54;02 - 00;11;01;12
Rachel
And with organized abuse, that's dog fighting, cockfighting, things of those nature, what people would refer to as blood sport.

00;11;02;18 - 00;11;18;00
Eugene
With, for example, the pandemic and stuff like that. Like and again, I'm not all that up on the like what sort of happened. But I did hear, for example, you know, a lot of people were adopting animals. And then now that things are back to normal, like they're not able to care for them properly and they're like giving them back.

00;11;18;00 - 00;11;25;00
Eugene
But I'm just wondering, you know, is there a relationship between, you know, maybe like mental health issues and stuff and then the animal treatment as well?

00;11;25;22 - 00;11;51;26
Rachel
There's definitely a strong connection with some of the neglect cases that we see with mental health hoarding, for example, is a recognized mental health condition. And we will see folks who hoard animals instead of items. They'll collect animals. And when they have hundreds of animals, it's impossible for one single person to care for them how they need to be cared for.

00;11;52;05 - 00;12;16;10
Rachel
So, there is a strong connection there between large-scale, large-scale neglect or hoarding and in mental health conditions. As far as the pandemic, we did see a bit of an increase with our caseload. We're still calculating all those numbers and looking at trends. So, it'll be interesting over the next couple of years to see if they continue to increase or if they go down.

00;12;17;09 - 00;12;23;18
Rachel
So, we are tracking that, but we don't have great data right now. As far as the pandemic is concerned.

00;12;24;02 - 00;12;50;16
Eugene
Okay. There's been an association with, you know, people who are intentionally hurting animals or torturing animals with leading into bigger things. And if anyone can do a search on YouTube or whatever, but there's a video that that I remember seeing, and it was it was I think his name is Sheriff Wayne Ivory of the sheriff's office. And one of the things he says is if you hurt an animal, you're going to hurt a human.

00;12;50;27 - 00;13;01;29
Eugene
And so, the are you seeing things where people are doing things to animals and then potentially it starts to lead into human.

00;13;01;29 - 00;13;44;03
Rachel
Now, unfortunately, we do see a lot of physical abuse or non-accidental injury occurring with animals. And I think abuse in any form should be taken very seriously. And while abuse is often found to be co-occurring with other forms of family violence, things like domestic violence, child abuse, elder abuse, and it really makes it a public health issue. In fact, actually, the NAACP or International Association of Chiefs of Police recently, I think at the end of last year adopted a resolution to enhance animal welfare and public safety because they recognize this important link between animal cruelty and other crimes.

00;13;45;14 - 00;14;13;09
Rachel
I've also seen cases where abusers may use animals as a means to control someone. And a case that always comes to mind when I talk about this was a case years ago where an individual ended up calling animal services, reporting that there was a stray dog in their yard and they reported that they appeared to have been burned, which is somewhat of an odd thing to notice and to report.

00;14;13;19 - 00;15;00;09
Rachel
So, law enforcement comes out and they scan the dog for a microchip, and it has a microchip, and the owner is the person who called and reported it as a stray. Come to find out, we did a forensic examination. Ultimately, I saw the dog after it had died and did a forensic necropsy and the dog looked to have been burned with scalding, scalding hot water on multiple occasions and come to find out after being presented with that evidence, the person who was doing this to control the other individual did plead guilty, admitted to the fact that they had poured boiling hot water, followed by an acidic cleaning agent on this dog on multiple occasions as

00;15;00;09 - 00;15;10;29
Rachel
a means to control that individual and call for enforcement. And thankfully, they were able to get both, and both of the people involved were able to get the help that they needed. With that.

00;15;10;29 - 00;15;32;02
Eugene
Can you good can you talk to me about just in general, like when you're teaching or when you're trying to explain to someone what you do? Like what is what is veterinary forensics and, you know, sort of like, why isn't it? Well, I think I think I know why it's important, but maybe just talk about also maybe some of how it different from human forensics.

00;15;32;14 - 00;16;01;08
Rachel
Yeah. So basically, veterinary forensic medicine is just practicing medicine within a legal context. So, we're practicing medicine with the understanding that our findings may be used in a court of law. So, we have to be thorough. We have to be objective, and we have to be able to explain complex medical conditions to people without medical training, a judge, a jury, so that they understand and the evidence at hand.

00;16;02;19 - 00;16;35;09
Rachel
It's different from human, the forensic pathology in the fact that our victims are animals. They're not people we otherwise, it's very much the same. We have clinical veterinary forensic medicine dealing with live animals. We have veterinary forensic pathology dealing with deceased animals. And just like a human medical doctor, we're examining those patients to gain information and evidence to present in a court of law by rendering our medical opinions.

00;16;35;18 - 00;16;58;13
Eugene
If you were to look at your discipline over the years, I'm interested in sort of how it's evolved. And can you comment on sort of where veterinary forensics is at? Is it at the at the same level as, you know, when we talk about forensics, you know, for crimes, is it there yet or is it is it underrepresented?

00;16;59;06 - 00;17;01;07
Eugene
I'm sort of interested in the differences there.

00;17;01;15 - 00;17;29;17
Rachel
Yeah. Over the last 15 years since I've been involved, it's really grown quite rapidly. I mean, it's still very young and its evolution, we are nowhere near where human forensic medicine is, but we're getting there, and we learn a lot from the application of that research to our victims. And oftentimes the research for the human studies revolves around using animals.

00;17;29;24 - 00;17;58;20
Rachel
So, we can apply a lot of that to our practice. But it's really grown by leaps and bounds. We now have a number of taxes on the topic of veterinary forensic medicine, forensic pathology. We have a number of research articles, none of which existed when I started 15 years ago. I remember once I found myself in this world of veterinary forensic medicine, one thinking I wasn't taught any of this in school.

00;17;58;20 - 00;18;28;14
Rachel
And to who can I talk to help me with this? And there really weren’t many people doing it back then. I reached out to the RSPCA, who did have a few veterinarians who were working on this work, and I'm lucky enough now to be doing this for the RSPCA and I always want to be that resource for folks who are just starting out in this area because I'm more than happy to assist them because that's that was me 15 years ago and I didn't have or know where to reach out to.

00;18;28;14 - 00;18;37;20
Rachel
So, I'm more than happy to help folks who are starting to do this work because that's what I would have wanted and needed 15 years ago when I was doing this.

00;18;38;09 - 00;18;49;00
Eugene
You mentioned the SPCA. So let me ask you about the SPCA and maybe just give me a maybe a quick overview about the organization and its role. You know, with what you're doing in veterinary forensics.

00;18;49;25 - 00;19;07;20
Rachel
Yeah. So, the SPCA is one of the oldest animal welfare organizations within the United States, founded in 1866. And our mission is to prevent and empower communities to prevent and respond to animal cruelty.

00;19;08;07 - 00;19;15;13
Eugene
It's a non-profit organization. Yes. And so, funding comes from donors.

00;19;17;01 - 00;19;26;14
Rachel
And all the work that we are able to do and the services that we provide to law enforcement at no cost is because of the gifts from our donors.

00;19;26;26 - 00;19;35;11
Eugene
Okay. Now, I know I think in Canada we have an SPCA, and I think there's a globally like are there very many similar types of organizations?

00;19;35;19 - 00;19;49;12
Rachel
Yes. Often times people confuse us with their local SPCA. But the ASPCA is a national organization that is separate from the issues that you see around the country and globally.

00;19;49;16 - 00;20;00;03
Eugene
Like, are there what would you say is perhaps like the next largest organization that's similar to what you're, you know, with the space agencies?

00;20;00;08 - 00;20;20;27
Rachel
Yeah, It's US is another organization that not only works within the US, but globally as well or internationally. There's the I know in the UK there is a large and the name is escaping me now organization that's very similar to ASPCA and each of us.

00;20;21;07 - 00;20;33;26
Eugene
I should say that in I think it was in somewhere around 2020. You're in. It's a veterinary forensic science center, so this is like a new thing for you. So where were you before and when did you move to the.

00;20;33;26 - 00;21;00;06
Rachel
States prior to our facility, I had an office at the University of Florida. And as you know, on campus, there is usually very limited space. And we just very quickly outgrew that space. And we were lucky enough in 2020, right before the pandemic hit, move into our new lab here in Florida. So, we have office space as well as two large laboratory spaces.

00;21;00;06 - 00;21;19;19
Rachel
We have our necropsy suite with a radiology suite built right off of that. We have our steel lab, which is right next to necropsy. So, we are able to do so much here at our facility to support law enforcement throughout the country with investigating crimes against animals.

00;21;20;21 - 00;21;38;17
Eugene
And so, you're starting to talk about a little bit of tech, which is exactly where I want to go. So, I wanted to ask you again about like sort of if we go back ten, 15, 20 years, what kinds of technologies were using back then versus what you have access to today? And is it a lot easier today versus back then?

00;21;38;17 - 00;21;39;28
Eugene
Like what kind of differences are there?

00;21;40;08 - 00;22;02;00
Rachel
Yeah, so when I first started, I basically had my stethoscope, my hands and a point and shoot camera, and that was what I was equipped with for a number of years. And not to say that you can't do it with just that, but now I am lucky enough to have all kinds of equipment that we utilize when investigating or assisting law enforcement investigating these crimes.

00;22;02;12 - 00;22;26;10
Rachel
So, when we're on scene, we'll use things like ammonia. Readers more in a hoarding house need to measure the amount of ammonia that those animals are being exposed to on a routine basis. We have a flare or a thermal imaging camera to assist us. We're also starting to use now UV, and I honor photography with our necropsies and with some of our live animal exams.

00;22;26;25 - 00;22;40;02
Rachel
Like I said, we have access to the radiographs or X-rays. We can also do full body CT through a partnership with a local clinic. So, we're able to do a lot of these cases forward. Now.

00;22;41;03 - 00;22;58;14
Eugene
What does a typical day look like for you? So, you know you're there and it's probably non typical, I expect It's not typical, but I'm just wondering like how does the work come in and then what is being requested of you and what kinds of activities do you typically do during the week?

00;22;59;03 - 00;23;27;21
Rachel
Yeah, it's very atypical. Every week is unique and exciting because we don't really know what we're going to be doing until we're doing it. So, we may have a week where we're teaching. I teach a semester long course currently teaching right now for Florida International University for the semester in two weeks. I teach a two-week elective for the University of Florida for third year vet students for the College of Veterinary Medicine.

00;23;28;04 - 00;23;54;02
Rachel
So, we could be teaching, doing labs, working hands on with students. We could be doing casework; we might receive an animal here at our facility for necropsy from anywhere in the country. Folks will email us and request that assistance. Those cases are vetted through our legal team and once accepted, they are shipped here, and we will perform that necropsy.

00;23;54;25 - 00;24;28;10
Rachel
Oftentimes we have students as well as a vet visiting veterinarians at our facility who are learning and watching while we're doing these necropsies. And then we could be deployed on a case so we might have a few days notice, we might have a week or two's notice, and we will deploy wherever in the country to assist law enforcement with typically large scale removals of animals, processing the crime scene, conducting forensic examinations on the animals that were removed from that property.

00;24;28;10 - 00;24;55;20
Rachel
And it may be at a temporary shelter that we set up within that state. Or it could be our cruelty recovery center in Ohio, where we take the animals and conduct examinations there. And then in between all of that, in our free time, we're conducting research. So, there's so much research and so many questions that we've had come up through our casework, through doing it through testimony that we want to have the answers to.

00;24;55;20 - 00;25;01;00
Rachel
So, in all of our free time, we are conducting research in this area.

00;25;01;00 - 00;25;23;27
Eugene
Yeah, I can I mean, you know, with humans at least it's one species. But, you know, when you're talking about dogs, cats, horses, just, you know, the I can only imagine the differences there and the lack of research as well, like the very specific things that are particular to, you know, a dog versus a horse or something like that.

00;25;23;27 - 00;25;36;17
Eugene
So, what are what are the most which are the animals that you see the most? Like what it was Species of animals are the most typical. And I'd like to know what is the most atypical or the rarest one that you've seen.

00;25;37;09 - 00;26;13;21
Rachel
Yeah. So, we tend to see mostly canines, dogs. We occasionally also have cases, large scale cases with chickens, cats, horses, farm animal, other farm animals. Occasionally we'll have exotic animals. I've had maybe a handful of times a clouded dragon or clouded dragon that we were working with snakes, reptiles, other small pocket pets, mammals, small mammals that will come across occasionally.

00;26;13;28 - 00;26;26;05
Rachel
And in those cases, we'll find veterinarians in the area who kind of specialize in those species to provide us with assistance. But typically, typically it's dogs, cats, horses, chickens.

00;26;26;28 - 00;26;35;08
Eugene
What other notable universities or organizations are there that are doing research as well in this area?

00;26;36;16 - 00;27;07;07
Rachel
Yeah, there are a few universities who are doing research in this area as well as offering class work in this area. University of Florida conducts research in this area, University of Georgia, LSU. I'm sure there's oh, Michigan State also does some research in this area. So, there's more and more veterinary schools who are starting to become engaged in this area of study and in this area of education.

00;27;07;19 - 00;27;34;03
Eugene
I'm looking at some of the research that you've already done and some of the stuff that you've published. And so, I always find it interesting because over time, like there is sometimes people have like an evolution or there's a specific path that they're following. But some of the research that you're doing are or some of the things that you've written about are about veterinary needs for animal cruelty recognition, things like best practices, you know, influence of evidence on animal cruelty, like these kinds of studies.

00;27;34;12 - 00;27;47;03
Eugene
And so that tells me or at least to me, it's a hint that you're still at a pretty early stage in this discipline and that there's a lot of work ahead of you. Is that fair to say?

00;27;47;14 - 00;27;56;00
Rachel
Yeah, I think that's fair to say. There is a lot that we just don't know. Nobody has research to publish. There's just there's a lot.

00;27;57;14 - 00;28;17;11
Eugene
And I mean, you're part of the Ozark Committee, too. And so I'm wondering, how do you how do you fit in or how do you plan with, you know, the people that are talking about, you know, crime scenes, you know, typical crime scenes and things like that that, you know, we see on TV and everything else? And how do you fit in, and mean is it pretty much the same thing?

00;28;17;11 - 00;28;32;05
Eugene
The investigative methods are the same. Like I'm curious about investigating these kinds of things. They're different. I mean, you don't you never have a witness because, you know, witnesses can't dial 911 and, you know, these dogs, cats or whatever. So, I'm curious about the differences there.

00;28;32;14 - 00;28;57;26
Rachel
Yeah. So, they are very similar. When I first started on the Ozark Committee back in 2019, at first people are like, why is there a veterinarian here? This makes no sense. But the more I listen to the conversations, we process these crime scenes the same way our crime scene analysts who process these scenes come to us from 2015 years experience.

00;28;57;26 - 00;29;26;04
Rachel
It's human crime scenes, and they apply that knowledge to the animal crime scenes. There are some differences. A big one that you pointed out is that our victim are not humans. They're animals. Oftentimes, law enforcement doesn't recognize that the animals themselves, well, are also the victim are also the evidence in these cases. So, if they come across a deceased animal in the trash, they may just leave it there or dispose of it and think nothing of it.

00;29;26;13 - 00;29;52;21
Rachel
And that's the evidence in that case. We need that to do a thorough necropsy and understand what may or may not have happened to that that individual. So, I think the training is essential to assist law enforcement in understanding that these cases, while a little bit different, are very much the same and to treat them like any other crime, they would be investigating processes in the same way.

00;29;52;29 - 00;30;17;27
Rachel
And just think about the different types of evidence that you will see in these cases. So, the animal is a piece of evidence. You want to document the animal's living environment. And then there's also specific things, let's say with dogfighting that we see on those scenes time and time again, and being able to recognize those pieces of evidence and how they apply to that type of crime.

00;30;17;27 - 00;30;30;27
Eugene
Okay. I was going to just ask you about the dogfighting, because you have a few research publications with respect to dogfighting. And I was wondering if it's because it's something that you're seeing very frequently, Is it a big problem in the United States?

00;30;31;11 - 00;31;01;20
Rachel
It is a huge problem. I had no idea when I was in private practice at that school, no idea how common and how pervasive really dogfighting is throughout the United States. Any given Saturday night, there is a number of dogfights occurring all over the country, and we could probably do a dogfighting case every week and still make very little strides in eliminating that practice.

00;31;02;15 - 00;31;26;14
Rachel
It is it's extremely pervasive. And it's really disturbing to know that that's still occurring and on such high levels throughout the United States. I did or participated in a case, I think it was back in 2013 that was the second largest dogfighting case in US history, second to the Missouri 500. So, we had just under 500 dogs that were seized.

00;31;27;17 - 00;31;57;27
Rachel
And to sit in court and to hear dogfighters testify against other dogfighters and just describe the lengths and the extent to which they were going to participate, this traveling across the country up and down the coast, beating hundreds of thousands of dollars on these cases, as much as half a million dollars on a single fight is just it blows your mind to know that that this is still occurring.

00;31;57;27 - 00;32;05;15
Rachel
And it's just it's so driven underground that it's hard to find and to detect and investigate.

00;32;05;15 - 00;32;24;25
Eugene
So, it's funny, though, because if it's if it's it must be well-organized or at a high level, because if it's that rampant, then, you know, people must either find ways to get around it or whatever. But, you know, like, where do they host these things? They must be remote or in places that are far, far away.

00;32;25;11 - 00;32;58;11
Rachel
Yeah, they and they often change the location at the last minute to deter detection by law enforcement. So oftentimes with these cases, if they are investigating a fight or going in on a fight that is happening as they're going in, they oftentimes have an undercover agent who knows exactly where it's going to be. Otherwise, it's very difficult to intercept them as they're happening because they're so hidden.

00;32;59;07 - 00;33;06;21
Eugene
Okay. I have to ask you about one of your studies, because I do not know what this is, but it's easier. GIBSON What the heck is that? It's an infection.

00;33;07;06 - 00;33;34;18
Rachel
So, it is a Protozoa infection that attacks the red blood cell of typically pit-bull type dogs. And the reason why we were, or dogs were a bit like pit bulls. And the reason why we wanted to look at that was because we were seeing more and more in our organized dogfighting cases. And early on we weren't detecting it because they're not all lab tests for all the different species of the BCA.

00;33;34;18 - 00;34;03;18
Rachel
And so, we were missing dogs that were plentiful. But the lab results, it looked like they didn't have it. But then we found a more comprehensive panel where we found them now and we detect it quite frequently in these guys as much as 26% of a typical dogfighting population is affected by the busy and kept. So now, as opposed to about 2% within the general pit population.

00;34;03;18 - 00;34;14;03
Rachel
So, no known association with organized dogfighting. So, it's another piece of the puzzle to assist us in recognizing organized dogfighting.

00;34;15;10 - 00;34;37;14
Eugene
Yeah. So, and with respect to dogfighting and the injuries, I mean, is there a way to distinguish between, you know, what is a dogfight versus what is just, you know, A it's always a dogfight. If a dog gets into a fight, it's still a dogfight. It's just it wasn't a planned the event kind of thing. So, I mean, how do you how that must be super difficult to distinguish.

00;34;38;18 - 00;34;40;05
Eugene
But are you looking at things like that?

00;34;40;07 - 00;35;21;22
Rachel
Yes. Yes. We have done a few studies and I'm actually currently looking at this even further, and I hope to publish by the end of this year an ongoing study. But we had a study. It was back in what year was it? 20, maybe it was 2019, I think that was published in JAMA, which is the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, looking at just that differentiating between a spontaneous dog fight meaning to housemates that get into it over food or a toy or a tension versus an organized dogfighting case.

00;35;21;22 - 00;35;56;12
Rachel
The dogs who have been bred, trained to fight in an organized fashion. And we saw a distinct difference between these groups of dogs with the organized dogfighting. We see not only a difference in the distribution, but the number of scars. So, it's mostly a head for front aspect of the animal distribution. So primarily the front legs followed by the lateral aspect and dorsal aspect of the head, followed by the muzzle and the oral mucosa.

00;35;56;12 - 00;36;29;02
Rachel
So mostly the front of the animal as opposed to the spontaneous dogfights where we see them primarily targeting the ears followed by the neck, followed by the front legs. But that is much fewer, just a handful of injuries in those areas. And with the organized dogfighting, we are seeing dozens of injuries to those areas. A second study that we did looking at not only the distribution of injuries, but also inner dog aggression with dogs seized from organized dogfighting cases.

00;36;29;17 - 00;36;42;26
Rachel
We saw about 36.5 injuries per dogfighting dog. So, it's a lot more than just a handful of injuries like we see with the spontaneous dog dogfights.

00;36;44;04 - 00;37;02;24
Eugene
I want to ask you about law enforcement and their knowledge of what you guys are doing. And I imagine you must you have a good campaign. You're very well known and stuff like that. But do you still find that you have to educate people on how to, you know, hey, we're here? Like, we can help. Like, are you finding that there's still more work to be done in that regard?

00;37;03;12 - 00;37;28;17
Rachel
Yes, very much so. We are constantly doing trainings throughout the United States, and we always hear, oh, I wish we would have known that, or we had a case like this. Does that sound familiar? So, there's a lot of education to be done in this area, just in recognizing the different crime types and the different evidence associated with these cases.

00;37;29;21 - 00;37;54;12
Eugene
So, in your training, so you offer training for like seminars and things like that, I guess for police, for law enforcement to say, hey, look, you know, if you're in this kind of situation, you know, here's what you look for. Are there are there any things you would recommend or sort of what are some of the important factors when, let's say, for example, maybe it's not law enforcement, but somebody a person suspects something of a happening?

00;37;54;12 - 00;38;23;17
Rachel
Yeah. So, I always think of the slogan in New York City, if you see something, say something. So, if you suspect that there may be something going on with an animal in your neighborhood, or if you see something, you need to report that to local law enforcement or to animal control. Same thing with veterinarians and private practice. If they suspect to animal cruelty, they should be reporting those suspicions to law enforcement.

00;38;23;17 - 00;38;43;08
Rachel
There is more information available to not only veterinarians but to citizens as well. If they have concerns on our website, if they go to ASPCA, that word back slash cruelty or slash cruelty, that's a great resource for where to go. If you suspect, you know, cruelty may be occurring.

00;38;43;08 - 00;38;55;06
Eugene
And actually, to that effect you have, there's a special website which is the ASPCA Pro, right. So, can you tell me the difference between the SPCA and the ASPCA Pro? And I'll bring it up here as well.

00;38;55;09 - 00;39;19;08
Rachel
Yeah. So ASPCA Pro is for working professionals. So those in the animal welfare field law enforcement veterinarians, and we direct them to ASPCA pro for resources to assist them in doing this work, whereas ASPCA dot org is for private citizens to learn more.

00;39;20;06 - 00;39;24;16
Eugene
Okay. And they can reach out to you and get involved that way as well. Right.

00;39;24;25 - 00;39;25;16
Rachel
Exactly.

00;39;26;03 - 00;39;40;22
Eugene
I wanted to ask about the I mean, when you're doing examinations, you'll have sometimes you'll have a living animal. Sometimes you can have an animal that's dead. Or sometimes I'm wondering, do you get any cases where you're just looking at bones?

00;39;40;24 - 00;39;41;24
Rachel
Yes.

00;39;41;24 - 00;39;45;05
Eugene
Or something that's far gone. You know, something that's yeah.

00;39;45;15 - 00;40;16;08
Rachel
Often times, yes, we do have cases where our animals are severely decomposed and all we can do in those scenarios is a skeletal analysis. We do have one of our crime scene analysts is almost done with a Ph.D. in forensic anthropology. And so, she will masturbate or remove the tissues from those remains and works with forensic anthropologists to assess those skeletal remains.

00;40;16;08 - 00;40;41;23
Rachel
And we've had some really amazing outcomes in those types of cases. We had one case where it was a dogfighting case. We were present on scene when law enforcement served the warrant. There was a grave that was detected, and we excavated the remains of a single canine. The dog was extremely decomposed, that it was a very hot summer.

00;40;42;20 - 00;41;11;00
Rachel
I took a look what I could with the soft tissue, and I did find one bullet that was lodged in a projectile that was lodged in the throat, did x rays. And after that I handed it over to Amanda Macerated and she removed all the tissue and painstakingly glue the mandible or the lower jaw back together. And lo and behold, we did not have one gunshot wound.

00;41;11;00 - 00;41;40;16
Rachel
We had two gunshot wounds. And she was able to determine, based upon the fracture pattern that the one to the throat occurred prior to the wound, to the head, which would have instantly killed the animal. So that opened the door for an additional animal cruelty charge, which later the defendant did plead guilty to. So, we couldn't say how much time was between those two shots, but it opened the door for immense pain and suffering to have occurred.

00;41;41;26 - 00;42;06;11
Eugene
I've noticed that because a lot of a lot of people that are that are doing, you know, the cruelty and stuff like that, they often record like what's going on. So, they are they'll take their cell phones or and they'll record the stuff and then they'll post it online. I don't know what they're thinking, but do you ever have to do any work where you have to try and identify the animal in the video versus the, you know, the body that's been recovered.

00;42;07;23 - 00;42;36;11
Rachel
Occasionally we will have requests like that. More commonly, we get, especially in the city video surveillance, and we're asked to break down the videotape of what exactly is occurring to that animal. We may even have our behaviorists break it down from a behavioral standpoint of the mental suffering that may have been occurring. And those cases.

00;42;37;11 - 00;42;49;09
Eugene
I'm curious about maybe some rare cases that you've had or maybe some things where you've had like these, oh, wow. Moments like, jeez, I, you know, never, never thought about that before. Are there any of those that stick out in your mind over your career?

00;42;49;18 - 00;43;16;12
Rachel
Yeah, a big one was a cow case that I worked on. So, there were two cows that were killed within a field full of cows. The farmer called law enforcement, and they weren't able, because of the size of these animals, they weren't able to transport much. What I was presented with was the head and two hind legs of a cow.

00;43;16;27 - 00;43;43;08
Rachel
And I thought there was no way I was going to be able to do much. But I always say it's worth a look. You never know until you take a look what you might find. And at that time, I was doing my necropsies in a lab with a bunch of forensic anthropologists, and I was looking at the head in particular in the hind legs and one of the anthropologists noted over my head they were always really interested.

00;43;43;08 - 00;44;06;17
Rachel
I was interested in their cases. They were really interested in mind. My own mind always smelled a lot more than interested in that, always drew maybe some attention that way. But the anthropologist leaned over my shoulder, and she was like, oh, I recognize those saw marks. So, the body had been cut apart. And they said, it looks like a reciprocating saw created those marks.

00;44;06;17 - 00;44;44;00
Rachel
And I was like, how do you know that often? Fortunately, they do, because people make other people up. So, I was able to masquerade that, and I gave her the balance. She looked under the microscope, did her analysis and was able to say, yes, it was a reciprocating saw, and that blew that case wide open. So, with that information, law enforcement went back, served a second warrant because they had a good idea of who the suspect may be, but they found the first time they searched the property, found a reciprocating saw, brought that saw back to our office.

00;44;44;16 - 00;45;16;00
Rachel
We took it apart, swabbed it, did find some traces of what looked to be blood, swabbed it. I took muscle from the cow for DNA analysis, and it was a perfect match. So, with that information that defendant decided to plead guilty to the killing of the two cows, which in that state is a felony offense. So, it was it was just amazing to me, though, how all of these specialists can come together to really solve these cases.

00;45;16;00 - 00;45;28;10
Rachel
I had no idea just how multidisciplinary these cases were until I started working with all these different forensic specialists. It's really amazing.

00;45;29;07 - 00;45;43;29
Eugene
So, what is your team like then? Like what is the makeup of your team? And then like, do you have partnerships or relationships with people outside that are like on contract or something? Or you just you call out whoever? Like how, what's your, what's your team like?

00;45;44;19 - 00;46;35;28
Rachel
Yeah, so we have the four veterinarians and then two crime scene analysts and a veterinary technician. But we often will work with a veterinary radiologist routinely submitting our radiographs to veterinarians. The veterinary radiologist who specializes in and forensics. We work with pathologists, veterinary pathologists. When we're doing our necropsies, we work with entomologists, with a variety of specialists within the veterinary forensic or within the forensic field, not veterinary forensic, just forensic sciences, but also our crime scene analysts have experience with like blood spatter analysis, and that will come in handy with the blood sport cases.

00;46;36;28 - 00;46;58;12
Eugene
Yeah, that makes sense. And your relationship with the universities in Florida, can you talk a little bit regarding that? And I mean, there's people here who are, you know, students and they may be looking at, you know, a career at some point in this particular area. And I'm just wondering what is the pathway like and what are some of the options for them to get into this field?

00;46;58;28 - 00;47;29;27
Rachel
Yeah, so there are a few options. Now. There is a master's degree program as well as a certificate program that the ASPCA assisted the University of Florida in developing and setting up. So, the University of Florida has now taken that and run with that. So that's an ongoing prep program, that degree program that they offer. We're also working closely with Florida International University to develop another a second-degree program.

00;47;30;05 - 00;47;56;11
Rachel
And this is going to be a PSM or professional science master's degree in veterinary forensics, and this will be launching in the fall of this year. So, another degree program to be looking at and this one is very much a forensic science-based program, but targeting more those working in veterinary medicine, maybe technicians, veterinary and front desk staff.

00;47;57;16 - 00;48;07;29
Rachel
And then we're hopeful that we will be able to develop a second track that will be directed towards law enforcement. So, a more investigative track in the future. With that program.

00;48;08;26 - 00;48;15;28
Eugene
There was a text that we had chatted about. Let me just see if I can if I have my notes here. Is it Jason Brooks?

00;48;16;12 - 00;48;19;08
Rachel
Yes, veterinary forensic pathology techs.

00;48;19;24 - 00;48;23;05
Eugene
Right. Right. So that's something that you contributed some chapters to, right?

00;48;23;08 - 00;48;26;06
Rachel
I did. I did, I think I wrote three chapters Am enough.

00;48;26;25 - 00;48;32;21
Eugene
Okay. And is that sort of is that sort of the Bible or kind of thing kind of book that people use?

00;48;32;26 - 00;48;43;27
Rachel
There is a number of resources, but that is my go-to resource and that's the resource I use for the courses that I teach. But there are a number of different texts on the topic now.

00;48;43;27 - 00;49;03;13
Eugene
Okay. Let me ask you about what you have planned in the future. Are you looking at growing the department or is there a specific area of research of interest to you that you want to focus in on? You know, partnerships like whatever, like what's sort of happening right now and looking forward, like what's going on?

00;49;03;13 - 00;49;30;00
Rachel
Yeah. So, we want to continue to spread the word to law enforcement as well as veterinarians and others working in this field, that we are a resource for them. We offer necropsies we can deploy on scene and assist with large scale removals and investigations. So, I want law enforcement to know that that we're a resource for them and that we are able to do that at no cost to them.

00;49;31;06 - 00;49;56;00
Rachel
We are continuing to teach. We hold trainings throughout the year for law enforcement, for veterinarians, those in the animal welfare profession, and we continue to do the research. I think areas of research for me in particular is dog fighting. I have I have an interest in that area and there's a lot of questions that I have that I want answers to.

00;49;56;07 - 00;50;35;14
Rachel
So, we'll continue to investigate that area as well as investigating how we can better serve veterinarians. What do veterinarians need? What does law enforcement need? What does what do prosecutors need to assist them in investigating and prosecuting these cases? Because, again, it's a novel, fairly young profession. And there's a lot of questions that that we need to answer and that we need to have answers to in court to help us make these cases and to determine what has or has not occurred.

00;50;35;14 - 00;51;09;28
Rachel
I think it's just as important to rule in that as it is to rule out these cases. I've had plenty of cases where law enforcement was quick to determine that an animal had been mutilated when in fact it wasn't a human that mutilated that animal that was attacked by another animal. So, it's just as important to rule out animal cruelty as it is trodden, because we don't want anyone who has not committed one of these crimes to be prosecuted for those crimes.

00;51;09;28 - 00;51;18;12
Rachel
So, there's a lot of research to be done all around in helping to identify when cruelty hasn't and has not occurred.

00;51;18;27 - 00;51;37;09
Eugene
And interesting. Yeah, if there's any that's an interesting because I know that there's a like for example where I teach at the University of Toronto, anthropology is big there. So that is the area where, you know, people focus in on is it a cut mark knife tool mark, or is it like you said, you know, reciprocating saw or something else?

00;51;37;09 - 00;51;47;29
Eugene
Right? So, if there's any areas in particular that you need help with, you maybe just mention it here because it's probably going to be a few people that are going to listen, you know, if their needs to be worked in a particular area.

00;51;48;15 - 00;52;08;02
Rachel
So, yeah, really and I've looked different human studies looking at different tools to cut hair and how that looks different. We haven't really done work like that with our animal victims, but there's just so much crossover and so much we can learn and apply from the human side to the animal side.

00;52;08;19 - 00;52;26;21
Eugene
Yeah, it's just amazing that like again, I'm just thinking about all the reptiles and the all the different things that you're working on. So, I don't know how you keep track. It's hard enough when it's just, you know, one species, but when you have all this crossover, you really have to be super knowledgeable in all these areas. So that's, I think that's a credit to too, that the work that you're doing.

00;52;27;28 - 00;52;51;24
Eugene
Would it be okay if I bring up your, your LinkedIn profile? Because I'd like to get in case somebody has some information here. Let me just. Okay. So yeah, it's early so I can make that larger. Also, the there's an email that people can, and I believe this is for law enforcement or people if they have questions or they want to get in touch.

00;52;52;24 - 00;52;59;18
Eugene
And let me bring that up here. And so just so I'm clear and I'm not misspeaking, but what's the purpose of this email or who should be contacting you here?

00;52;59;24 - 00;53;22;13
Rachel
Yeah. So, this is how you contact our laboratory here in Florida. It's the ASPCA Veterinary Forensic Science Center. So, the FSC, ASPCA, that would if law enforcement has questions, they want to maybe submit a case to us, they can email us through that. Veterinarians, if they have questions, want to consult on a case, they can email us that way.

00;53;23;07 - 00;53;30;19
Rachel
We're here as a resource and we're happy to do whatever we can. And if we're not the right folks, we're happy to direct people where they need to go.

00;53;31;08 - 00;53;38;29
Eugene
Okay. And somebody had asked a question about the text, and I don't know if you can just respond here. What was that was the actual title of the text with Jason Brooks.

00;53;39;13 - 00;53;45;18
Rachel
Yes, it's veterinary forensic pathology. And there's two volumes, volume one and volume two.

00;53;46;08 - 00;54;05;28
Eugene
Okay. So, Gail, I hope that helps you out there. So, I think that's most of what I want to cover. I think it's, again, very appreciative of your time for here. I'm really glad that we could bring some visibility to this and hopefully, maybe in the future, I'd like to have you back, maybe talking about more specific cases and more of the technology and a lot of the stuff that you're working on.

00;54;06;11 - 00;54;23;13
Eugene
I think it's great work. I think it's super cool. You got a cool a new forensic center that you can work out of instead of the university lab. And it's great that people are bringing awareness to this, and you know that it's growing for you as well. So best of luck there.

00;54;23;13 - 00;54;25;10
Rachel
All right. Thank you so much for having us.

00;54;25;24 - 00;54;43;03
Eugene
Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. Okay, folks, that does it for this particular one. A very important topic. You know, something that I've been wanting to talk about for some time now, so really appreciative that we could have Rachel here to discuss this important topic. Take care, everyone. Bye.