EP 86| Roberto King | 3D Analysis of Questioned Documents

3D Analysis of Questioned Documents | EP 86 | Roberto King | June 22, 2023 | 2PM
 
Dr. Roberto King, the Vice President of Product at foster+freeman, UK, previously foster+freeman's Chief Technology Officer, brings a wealth of experience and expertise in forensic chemistry. During this live interview, he will delve into the fascinating world of forensic science, with a particular focus on the use of 3D technology for the analysis of questioned documents. With a background in inorganic chemistry, Dr. King's research interests span fingermarks, body fluids, trace evidence, and contact transfer. Having presented over 150 lectures worldwide and published numerous research papers and book chapters, Dr. King is a recognized authority in the field. Don't miss this opportunity to gain fresh insights into the innovative applications of 3D technology in forensic document analysis. Join us for an engaging session! 

Originally aired on: June 22, 2023

Transcript

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Hey everyone, it’s Eugene

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And welcome to another edition of 
Forensics Talks.

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This is going to be episode 86.

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And my guest today is Roberto King.

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So, Dr. Roberto King, he's the vice president of
product at Foster and Freeman in the U.K.,

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overseeing the company's product
innovation and development portfolio.

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Previously, he was the chief technology
officer, and that's where I first met him.

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Roberto gained a first-class honors degree

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in chemistry and sports science
from Loughborough University in 2005,

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and he completed his PhD in chemistry
four years later at the same institution.

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He's a versatile inorganic chemist
with experience in the application

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of chemistry within the forensic arena,
and his background involves

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the development of novel
fingerprint enhancing agents for use

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on troublesome substrates,
as well as investigation and unique

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methodologies for evidence recovery
from document-based evidence.

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His current research interests
involve fingermarks, body fluids,

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question, document examination, trace
evidence and contact transfer.

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And I'm sure we're going to be talking
about some of these topics for sure.

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And he's published a whole bunch
of papers, more than 25 research papers,

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three book chapters.

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And he's appeared on numerous television
broadcasts, he's lectured,

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and he's been even a presenter

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at the Forensic Photography Symposium
that I held in January.

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And he did a talk on Visualizing Blood.

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And I remember
it was actually quite a technical talk

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and really great information
for those of you that were there.

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Now, we've had

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some past discussions on 3-D document
analysis, both Roberto and I

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and some of his team,

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and I really think

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it's an interesting area and so when
I saw recently that a paper came out,

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I thought this would be
a great opportunity to talk about

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some of the work that he was doing
and maybe where he's going in this area.

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So, what I'm going to do here
is I'm going to bring Roberto in.

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There is Heidi Rivera. Hi. How are you doing?

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Good, thanks.

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Thanks, you.

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Appreciate it. Well,
thank you for being here.

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And thank you again for talking
at the Forensic Photography symposium.

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It seems like it seems like a long time
ago, actually, but it wasn't really.

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Yeah.
Yeah. Time flies. And you're having fun.

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Well,
I usually start guests on their background

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because I'm often curious
about how people got to where they were.

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If I.

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If we win the clock back
before Roberto was in university,

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he was trying to figure out
what he was trying to do.

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Were you one of those techie kids or.
We are.

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No, not at all. In fact,
quite the opposite.

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Maya, my primary focus
when I was kind of going through

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the last years of school here
was Spore.

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I was kind of mad on Spore.

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Anything that would involve getting out
and I'm being competitive.

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That was kind of where my
where my interest lay.

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And I was kind of I was naturally kind of,

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I guess, interested in science,

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but more so from a from an application

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perspective, rather than understanding
the theory behind it all. And

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the in the UK Loughborough University is,

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you know, known for being world
leading for as a sport institution.

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And you know, they excel in in

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in various aspects of science
and engineering and I.T.

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But sports science is really where,

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where they're kind
of known across the world.

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And so, for me, it was

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I wanted to do sport science
and I wanted to Loughborough University

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that kind of

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developed a little bit into me
taking on a joint on this program

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and with chemistry as kind of

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the other discipline.

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I won't bore you with the details
as to how that how that came about.

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But, but it did.

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And my, my, my kind of my primary

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kind of ambition was to get into
into the university, start studying both.

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And then if I wanted to make the transfer
directly to sports science,

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then I would have done so.
But I wanted to get my options open

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and then I kind of got into the
after the first semester.

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And the first semester of university
is always difficult, right?

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It's a steep learning curve.

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You're into the big, wide world, right?

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And I ended up really enjoying day,
the chemistry that was being taught.

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And I think for me, the fundamental

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difference between learning chemistry
or science at school

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and learning at university was the way
that it was being taught to me.

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And I learned a lot during those few years
and it's something that I

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still to this day I'm really passionate
about in terms of outreach, engagement,

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promoting science,
getting people interested at a young age

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is something that I do so regularly,
I guess well, as regularly as possible.

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Go to sort of local schools
outreach events and try and just talk

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a little bit about the fundamentals,
tools of science and how they all apply.

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But anyway, I digress a little bit.

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But yeah, I kind of had a bit of a
I developed a bit of a spot for chemistry,

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and I turned out to be relatively
good at it, I guess,

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and I

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enjoyed the practical side of things
and got to the end of the three years.

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I did the joint honors, and I did
did pretty good in my degree

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and there was an opportunity for a
for a STUDENTSHIP And of course I was

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kind of like many in my situation,
you know, come to graduation.

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Yeah. What am I going to do?

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I don't really know what I want to do, but
everyone around me was saying, the more,

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the more qualifications you can get,
the better it sounds you invested.

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So actually, opportunity
came around in organic chemistry.

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Okay.

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You know, I enjoy an organic chemistry.

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Let's have a go at that.

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So, I then started a PhD in organic
chemistry.

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My, my remit for that was actually

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to explore some applications

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of some main group chemistry,

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and it had nothing to do
with forensic science at all. And

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we were sort of

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working on a project,
actually, looking at developing a material

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that could detect ammonia.

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And one of the interesting properties
with this particular

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material was that it was actually
a superconductor at low temperature

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and it formed these really quite intricate

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molecular wires of two molecules.

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So, for nitrogen and our idea
after the sort of ammonia sensor project

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didn't really work out was to, well,
what about if we can look at

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incorporating these molecular wires
into something inert

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and you're effectively
you're creating these insulating

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molecular wires and the idea with that
or the application drive at the time

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was kind of the miniaturization
of electronic devices, right?

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And so, we started doing that
and we had some really good success.

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But this is where I fell into forensics

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pretty much by accident
was the material that we were using

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is deployed

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as a as a as a vapor
gossamer under a vacuum atmosphere.

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And we were finding that
we were developing

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fingerprints on all of our glassware
that we've been using.

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And it was actually in the first
few instances, it was more of an annoyance

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because we could not see inside
that inside the reaction vessel.

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But we ended up we ended up
kind of just digging into the literature

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because, you know,
this was about 2006 and 2006.

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We were that kind of thinking, well,

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surely no one's interested
in fingerprint processes like fingerprints

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been used for hundreds of years,
and why would there be an interest?

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But there was more
and more being published,

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and I remember seeing quite
an intricate paper that was talking about

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ACM analysis of Develop Fingermarks,
and it was in a high-profile journal.

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And so actually there's maybe more to this
and it was

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then really didn't really have much
of an experience in forensic science.

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It wasn't the CSI

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Miami, CSI Vegas thing, but it is now.

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It was you know; it was so it was
it was kind of just coming into the saw

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TV realms and
and so, it was a steep learning curve.

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We engaged with people at the UK
home Office

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people
and the sort of UK defense laboratory.

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And we realized that we had something
actually, that could

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potentially be quite powerful.

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And so, the next
however, many years to where we are now,

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kind of my journey
developed from researching

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what was fundamental chemistry
to applying that

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I guess coincidental observation
to a forensic challenge.

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And that then moved on to me
kind of getting a real passion for that

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and wanting to make a difference.
And I think that that's key.

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It's yes, I'm really keen on engaging
and promoting

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and talking about all things
kind of science or forensic science,

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but I'm also keen on what we do
in terms of our research

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and now fostering
premium product development

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and making a difference in the real world.

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And I think that that's why I ultimately
moved from the academic environment

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where I was absolutely enjoying

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researching and developing
research and working and developing people

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that were working in my research team
as I as I grew through

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through the ranks a little bit.

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But I wanted to see that transition.

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And that's often where a lot of these
kind of great ideas kind of fall over.

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Is that kind of valley of death
between right idea?

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We can prove the concept,

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but what about actually productize
and getting it used in anger? So.

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So yeah, in a nutshell
that's a little bit about my background.

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Yeah.

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I think

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one thing that strikes me about you
and I'm the same way, is that you're

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not a one trick pony and that you have a
diverse interests in many different areas.

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And I think I think that's always helpful
when a person is a generalist

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shouldn't say that, but you're actually
specialized in many areas.

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But you know, you borrow from one place
and you bring something.

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That's one another.

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I would say, yeah, my passion really

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where my heart is, is in fingerprints.

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I think that largely
because that's where it all started.

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But there is so much with forensics
where you're absolutely well, you borrow

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from one discipline

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that might be on the fringes
of what we would call forensic science.

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And you adapt it
and you see opportunity.

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And it's difficult sometimes to see

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to see how potentially
something quite abstract

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can be kind of molded and formed, to have

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real world application
in the discipline that we work.

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And so, yeah, it's every day
is, is different

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and there are different challenges,
whether it be fingerprints,

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whether it would be question
documents, whether it be crime scene

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and you know,

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I guess the state of the
the forensic landscape is changing.

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A lot has started to change
and it certainly will

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accelerate apace
with the introduction of cyber

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cyberterrorism, cyber threat,
digital forensics.

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These are areas
that are exploding at pace now.

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And, you know, there are you know, that's
outside of my immediate comfort zone,

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but it's certainly something
I've got an interest in.

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So again, keen to see how
maybe there are some synergies there.

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Yeah.

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It was your introduction
to Foster and Freeman, though,

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was that while you were in school
or was right after you graduated?

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No, no.

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I mean, I was aware of Foster Freeman
whilst I was doing my stay.

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We actually worked with them
to some degree

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and looking at trying to be productized

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the techniques that we were working on.

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But it was one of
those situations where the,

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the, the process was, was

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being used operationally by UK
ministry of Defense.

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And so, it was something that needed
to actually at that moment in time

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not develop any further
beyond that operational capacity.

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And so that was my introduction
to Foster and Freeman, and then its kind of

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came back around full circle.

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We ended up developing the product
a few years ago, now,

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and that's the other product that we spoke

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briefly about before we came on air.

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But yeah, I mean, that's that was
my introduction to Foster and Freeman.

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And I think once you
when you start digging into the physical

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forensic sciences and forensic technology
and forensic technology manufacturers

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and suppliers, then Foster Freeman
and one of those companies,

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one of those organization
that have presence.

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And for me it was the natural

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kind of progression in my career anyway,
and it was the right time to do so.

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So, what position did you begin with
in Foster Freeman?

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What was your role?

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So, I started as an R&D application
specialist,

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research and development application
specialist and

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it's quite funny because I remember
having some early discussions

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when I when I started at Foster
Freeman, again, big step

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into the big wide world,
you know, in the academic level anymore.

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You're in the sort of,
I guess the commercial industrial bubble

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and you know, it was
what was my remit at that time?

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Well, actually we were quite a
we were a relatively small organization.

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When I joined, I think there were about 80
something people in the business

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just full and perspective.

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We're about 160 now in those nine years.

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So, we've developed pretty, pretty well

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and there wasn't.

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We had a couple of chemists,
we had a couple of physicists.

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Everything that we do, Foster Freeman is,

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is, was and is done in-house.

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We don't outsource stuff.

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We have our own research
and development department

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and that's where I was embedded within
and we had access to a chemistry lab

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and that basically became my kind of lab,
my little chamber.

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And I just tinker in there
and I was working on fingerprint stuff.

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And interestingly, at the time,
as I mentioned, a few moments ago,

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always it's always important
to keep an eye on the landscape

00;14;19;17 - 00;14;23;01
and understand
what challenges are coming down the track.

00;14;23;29 - 00;14;24;14
At the time.

00;14;24;14 - 00;14;26;04
For in the UK, we were

00;14;26;04 - 00;14;29;19
we were due to be moving over
to polymer currency, which

00;14;29;19 - 00;14;32;20
I know in Canada you guys have had polymer
currency for a number of years.

00;14;32;20 - 00;14;35;29
And one of the biggest challenges
that we had or the UK

00;14;36;06 - 00;14;39;06
police force is have
the forensic force teams have was

00;14;39;15 - 00;14;43;24
how do we develop
fingerprints on this new currency

00;14;44;17 - 00;14;49;12
because we've kind of
honed our processes for the paper

00;14;49;12 - 00;14;51;18
based materials that we've had for years

00;14;51;18 - 00;14;53;14
and now we're having this polymer
currency.

00;14;53;14 - 00;14;54;00
What do we do?

00;14;54;00 - 00;14;57;24
Well, yes, you can look to the likes
of Canada and Australia who are

00;14;58;02 - 00;15;02;26
I guess they were world leaders
in putting that technology in place,

00;15;02;26 - 00;15;07;08
put in polymer currency, in circulation,
but also developing the

00;15;07;18 - 00;15;11;03
the infrastructure behind it
from not only from the bank

00;15;11;03 - 00;15;13;22
manufacturers
and all of their technology, their ATMs,

00;15;13;22 - 00;15;17;07
but also, the policing processes and
and looking at that.

00;15;17;18 - 00;15;20;08
But the difference in the UK scenario
was that

00;15;20;08 - 00;15;23;13
we were using an entirely different type
of polymer material.

00;15;23;23 - 00;15;26;14
So, the base material
was completely different, which meant that

00;15;26;14 - 00;15;30;20
the coatings in the inks and the pigments
and everything else was all entirely new.

00;15;30;20 - 00;15;33;01
So, it was a really steep learning curve.

00;15;33;01 - 00;15;37;12
So, for me I saw that as a really good
opportunity to say, Well, okay,

00;15;37;24 - 00;15;41;05
we've got something
that's come in in the next year or so.

00;15;41;26 - 00;15;44;18
We know that we need to have
a better understanding

00;15;44;18 - 00;15;47;18
of what fingerprint processes we can use.

00;15;48;00 - 00;15;49;21
That was question document stuff as well.

00;15;49;21 - 00;15;53;28
That we also got involved with were
the optical properties of these things.

00;15;54;18 - 00;15;57;18
But actually, what are the challenges there
with developing

00;15;57;18 - 00;16;01;21
fingerprints on banknotes,
also, on polymer bank notes?

00;16;01;21 - 00;16;06;14
And we then developed
actually, a range of two independent

00;16;06;21 - 00;16;08;04
fingerprint powders

00;16;08;04 - 00;16;11;03
that have unique properties
where they fluoresce in the infrared part

00;16;11;03 - 00;16;11;23
of the spectrum.

00;16;11;23 - 00;16;15;10
And the benefit there is that you don't
have any background interference.

00;16;15;10 - 00;16;18;25
And that's one of the biggest challenges
that you have when trying to get good

00;16;18;25 - 00;16;23;00
rich detail from currency
that has these really intricate

00;16;23;00 - 00;16;24;01
patterns in the background.

00;16;24;01 - 00;16;26;16
You have fluorescent security features.

00;16;26;16 - 00;16;28;24
So that was something that I got
my teeth into straight away.

00;16;29;23 - 00;16;31;08
And yes, I really enjoyed that.

00;16;31;08 - 00;16;34;11
I got to work quite closely
with the Bank of England

00;16;34;11 - 00;16;38;04
and got access to some of these notes
before they even went into circulation.

00;16;38;04 - 00;16;39;01
So that was really cool,

00;16;39;01 - 00;16;42;00
you know, coming out of the academic
environment straight into that.

00;16;43;06 - 00;16;46;03
But yeah, I was an R&D application
specialist and I was working on

00;16;46;03 - 00;16;52;10
pretty much any kind of bits of research
that needed to be done to help support

00;16;52;11 - 00;16;56;01
or bring a product through from
it might have been blue sky

00;16;56;04 - 00;16;59;23
kind of concepts
or it might have just been evolutionary

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;04;11
prioritization, but they were the kind
of projects that I was working on.

00;17;05;00 - 00;17;09;20
Well, see, I mean, you were a CTO
and then you moved into your current role,

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;10;21
which was product.

00;17;10;21 - 00;17;14;14
So, which, which I can see
a lot of relationship ideas and course

00;17;14;14 - 00;17;15;09
overlap there.

00;17;15;09 - 00;17;19;15
So as far as your current role right now,
how deep are you able to get into each

00;17;19;15 - 00;17;20;15
of the different products?

00;17;20;15 - 00;17;23;19
I mean, is it more like sort of driving it
from a high level or like

00;17;23;20 - 00;17;25;01
how do you get it?

00;17;25;01 - 00;17;26;01
It's one of those

00;17;26;01 - 00;17;30;02
where you'd love to be able to be really,
really close to absolutely everything.

00;17;30;19 - 00;17;34;07
But as always is
is having the bandwidth to do that?

00;17;34;17 - 00;17;35;25
I think so.

00;17;35;25 - 00;17;39;26
So, for me,
I kind of sit above that and try and I'm

00;17;39;26 - 00;17;42;26
try and drive it in
the right direction, but that

00;17;43;25 - 00;17;44;17
that requires

00;17;44;17 - 00;17;47;17
kind of having an understanding of

00;17;48;11 - 00;17;49;25
existing product

00;17;49;25 - 00;17;53;07
roadmap, product
portfolio, understanding what

00;17;53;29 - 00;17;56;10
emerging technologies in other areas

00;17;56;10 - 00;17;59;23
may enable us to do certain things
within our sphere

00;18;00;19 - 00;18;03;16
enables us to get really close
and have really good relationships

00;18;03;16 - 00;18;06;25
with end users
to understand what their challenges are.

00;18;06;26 - 00;18;08;23
It requires us to understand

00;18;08;23 - 00;18;12;03
regulatory changes that might be happening
in certain jurisdictions.

00;18;12;15 - 00;18;16;12
So, you know, the introduction of things
like ISO 1702, five or 17,

00;18;16;13 - 00;18;19;28
that's why that means that we need
to change the way that we develop product

00;18;19;28 - 00;18;23;10
because there's going to be a need
from the end users to

00;18;24;04 - 00;18;27;09
to be able to do things in a much

00;18;27;09 - 00;18;30;12
more controlled manner
and a reliable and repeatable manner,

00;18;31;04 - 00;18;35;01
but also involves is keep an eye
on the research that's going on

00;18;35;01 - 00;18;39;14
and seeing what other people are doing
because quite often the trends in certain

00;18;40;02 - 00;18;44;00
certain sectors can help you understand
where some of the challenges are,

00;18;44;00 - 00;18;48;00
because quite often the research has been
done is being funded.

00;18;48;10 - 00;18;49;27
And the reason the funding is there is

00;18;49;27 - 00;18;51;19
because there's a challenge
that needs to be solved.

00;18;51;19 - 00;18;55;27
So, I try and stay as close as possible
to things.

00;18;55;27 - 00;19;00;05
I mean, generally speaking,
we will develop as a as a as a company.

00;19;00;05 - 00;19;02;03
We'll probably launch
a couple of products a year.

00;19;03;14 - 00;19;06;08
The pandemic was a really

00;19;06;08 - 00;19;09;27
interesting time,
not obviously for everyone, but for us.

00;19;09;27 - 00;19;14;26
We kind of we were when we developed
products, we're not necessarily

00;19;14;26 - 00;19;17;27
just developing one product
and then we move on to another where

00;19;18;08 - 00;19;21;22
we're sort of code co-developing
and they'll be at different stages.

00;19;21;22 - 00;19;24;26
Now, when the pandemic came through,
we were we had about three or four

00;19;24;26 - 00;19;28;03
projects
on the on the staff on the agenda.

00;19;28;03 - 00;19;32;26
And our focus really during
that pandemic was to get those finished.

00;19;33;10 - 00;19;37;16
And so, we launched three or four products
in a relatively short space of time.

00;19;37;16 - 00;19;41;07
But generally speaking, we will try
and launch once two products a year.

00;19;41;07 - 00;19;46;08
So that means that can be a lot closer
to them, can kind of support them

00;19;46;11 - 00;19;50;07
in a bit more of an intimate way,
if you will,

00;19;50;16 - 00;19;54;14
and then work with ensuring
because the job isn't just about

00;19;55;00 - 00;19;58;07
having the ideas, developing the products,
launching it

00;19;58;15 - 00;20;02;13
and then starting the next, it's
also, about support is in some respects

00;20;02;13 - 00;20;06;07
it's more important to support
that introduction into the marketplace.

00;20;06;26 - 00;20;11;15
And so really my transition from CTO,
where I was overseeing all of the research

00;20;11;24 - 00;20;15;07
and understanding the way
that that research could funnel into new

00;20;15;07 - 00;20;16;04
product development,

00;20;17;20 - 00;20;19;27
that in some respects that

00;20;19;27 - 00;20;24;05
the work that you do today,
you see the benefits of that

00;20;24;15 - 00;20;27;27
three, four or five years down the line
moving into the role.

00;20;28;03 - 00;20;31;16
And at the minute
it's trying to disseminate that

00;20;31;24 - 00;20;34;24
knowledge, the power
of some of the new technologies

00;20;35;20 - 00;20;38;20
with the end users and the end user

00;20;39;06 - 00;20;42;07
isn't always the person
that's using the product.

00;20;42;07 - 00;20;45;23
It's sometimes the people that are
in the procurement agencies that need

00;20;45;23 - 00;20;48;22
to understand what the business case
is for a particular technology

00;20;48;22 - 00;20;49;25
that's going to save me time.

00;20;49;25 - 00;20;53;15
Is it going to give me high
reproducibility?

00;20;53;15 - 00;20;55;17
Is it going to be more reliable,
all those kinds of things.

00;20;55;17 - 00;20;57;26
So, it's trying to it's trying to work
as closely as possible

00;20;57;26 - 00;21;01;18
to have this kind of customer centric
approach to everything that we do.

00;21;01;18 - 00;21;03;08
And, you know, that's really important.

00;21;03;08 - 00;21;06;28
And being connected
on, on, on teams, on Zoom,

00;21;06;28 - 00;21;09;28
all these kind of things
that the pandemic brought with it

00;21;10;14 - 00;21;11;19
has enabled us to

00;21;11;19 - 00;21;14;28
to have these conversations
and have these dialogs a lot more readily.

00;21;16;15 - 00;21;19;11
Yeah, the transfer of information
during that time has been incredible.

00;21;19;11 - 00;21;23;28
And I yeah, I mean, for me, the
I just before the pandemic,

00;21;23;28 - 00;21;27;00
I was sort of already transitioning
into doing online training and such.

00;21;27;00 - 00;21;29;15
So, when it hit it was incredible.

00;21;29;15 - 00;21;32;15
Like the response, I think June of 2020,

00;21;32;16 - 00;21;34;12
you could have had a course on basket
weaving.

00;21;34;12 - 00;21;37;20
Everyone was on board,
people were buying online courses,

00;21;37;20 - 00;21;39;18
there were budgets for training
and everything else.

00;21;39;18 - 00;21;45;17
So, I think yesterday when the
we sort of went into lockdown,

00;21;46;08 - 00;21;50;23
we ended up
we were the first kind of organization

00;21;50;23 - 00;21;55;06
within our particular market sector
to try our hands at webinars.

00;21;55;06 - 00;21;57;03
And it was actually something that

00;21;57;03 - 00;22;00;05
we'd wanted to do for a number of years,
but it was kind of

00;22;00;15 - 00;22;03;17
not sure that will really take on a
maybe it well, maybe it won't.

00;22;04;02 - 00;22;06;19
But then we were forced into it
because at the end of the day,

00;22;06;19 - 00;22;10;25
when you when you are an organization
that ultimately relies on selling product

00;22;11;08 - 00;22;17;11
right then you have to find ways
to get out there and engage.

00;22;17;11 - 00;22;22;22
And so, we decided to do that
to our first webinar in June 2020.

00;22;23;07 - 00;22;25;12
And I remember it so clearly.

00;22;25;12 - 00;22;29;19
I remember being in a demo room
and we had two webcams

00;22;29;19 - 00;22;34;21
and we tried to do live presentation,
live demo with scientific equipment.

00;22;34;21 - 00;22;36;26
You know, it's never going to go quite as

00;22;38;23 - 00;22;40;06
I remember doing it.

00;22;40;06 - 00;22;44;06
And we had, you know, we had about 90
people on, and I was amazed to see

00;22;44;20 - 00;22;48;15
90 people that we had a captive audience
with for an hour.

00;22;48;15 - 00;22;50;23
And yeah, okay, people may have

00;22;50;23 - 00;22;54;02
tried to dial into the basket
weaving course and got us accidentally,

00;22;54;19 - 00;22;58;03
but, you know, it was it was great
to actually have that dialog with people.

00;22;58;03 - 00;23;00;15
And it's something
that we've stuck with.

00;23;00;15 - 00;23;04;14
And now if anyone's dived into
any of our webinars and much more polished

00;23;05;20 - 00;23;09;18
and we have a live Q&A section at the end,
which is which personally being always

00;23;09;18 - 00;23;13;16
the best bit for me
because it's great to feel that feedback

00;23;13;16 - 00;23;15;12
and hear what some of the questions and,

00;23;15;12 - 00;23;17;15
and try and sort of answer
them as best as possible.

00;23;17;15 - 00;23;20;15
We don't always have the answers right,
but we certainly try to find them out.

00;23;20;15 - 00;23;22;13
If we don't if we don't know it.

00;23;22;13 - 00;23;22;29
Absolutely.

00;23;22;29 - 00;23;26;01
The interaction is a great part
when you can sort of

00;23;26;01 - 00;23;29;03
you know, when it's not just one way
and you can get feedback, which is great.

00;23;29;25 - 00;23;32;09
I want to knock off a couple of things
off of the list here.

00;23;32;09 - 00;23;34;14
And because you have
there’re four areas here.

00;23;34;14 - 00;23;36;04
When I go under products
and they were actually.

00;23;36;04 - 00;23;37;21
it was a good way
to sort of approach this.

00;23;37;21 - 00;23;41;18
So, I want to circle back to the question
documents after the other three.

00;23;41;24 - 00;23;43;24
And so, can you give me
just a couple of minutes

00;23;43;24 - 00;23;47;09
on what you guys are doing right now
with trace evidence analysis?

00;23;47;09 - 00;23;49;16
I see, you know, a number of,
you know, some spectra.

00;23;49;16 - 00;23;51;11
You got forum,
you got some of the things there.

00;23;51;11 - 00;23;54;18
So just maybe give me a summary
of what you guys are doing in there

00;23;54;18 - 00;23;57;07
and then we'll go on to fingerprints,
forensic light sources and more.

00;23;57;07 - 00;23;58;21
Well, knock off question talking.

00;23;58;21 - 00;24;01;23
Yes. So, trace evidence is kind of

00;24;03;17 - 00;24;04;21
one aspect of what we do.

00;24;04;21 - 00;24;07;21
There are four main value streams
that you've got on the screen there

00;24;08;10 - 00;24;11;10
within the saw trace evidence

00;24;11;15 - 00;24;12;06
product line.

00;24;12;06 - 00;24;16;05
We have systems that allow us to do.

00;24;16;14 - 00;24;19;09
analysis of things
like fibers, glass fragments.

00;24;19;09 - 00;24;22;08
So, you may have heard of a technique
called

00;24;22;12 - 00;24;25;23
glass or glass
refractive index measurement or Grimm.

00;24;26;03 - 00;24;29;05
That's a technique that was developed
by Mike Foster and Freeman.

00;24;29;05 - 00;24;33;02
It allows you to look at the refractive
index of glass, match

00;24;33;10 - 00;24;36;17
a particular fragment of glass
to another source elsewhere.

00;24;36;28 - 00;24;42;12
So, we have within our trace evidence
product portfolio, we have a Grimm set up,

00;24;42;19 - 00;24;44;23
we do Raman spectroscopy as well.

00;24;44;23 - 00;24;48;23
So, we have a few different offerings
on laboratory benchtop, Roman's

00;24;49;02 - 00;24;50;28
spectrometers.

00;24;50;28 - 00;24;53;18
What different uses and applications.

00;24;53;18 - 00;24;55;07
We get involved from a question document

00;24;55;07 - 00;24;59;11
side of things we know that they use
for the analysis of inks, toners,

00;25;00;22 - 00;25;01;24
different things,

00;25;01;24 - 00;25;06;02
different things that may be on printed
surfaces, but that can also be useful

00;25;06;10 - 00;25;10;25
for looking at things like minerals and
and soils and whatnot.

00;25;11;12 - 00;25;14;12
And then we have an FTA, which is kind of,

00;25;14;23 - 00;25;18;07
I guess, our flagship trace
evidence system,

00;25;18;07 - 00;25;21;12
which allows you to do pretty much
anything that you would need to do

00;25;21;12 - 00;25;24;12
that uses a microscopes and micro spectra,
Photometry

00;25;25;01 - 00;25;28;00
said the glass refractive
index measurement

00;25;28;21 - 00;25;32;22
polarization microscopy
so, it's for the

00;25;33;03 - 00;25;36;23
the more advanced
I guess the more advanced laboratory

00;25;36;23 - 00;25;40;13
that requires to have that higher level
of interrogation down to the sort of

00;25;42;06 - 00;25;44;19
microscopic size.

00;25;44;19 - 00;25;47;06
On the fingerprint side,
you've got imaging systems,

00;25;47;06 - 00;25;49;28
you have filming systems, and you said,
you know, you have some novel techniques.

00;25;49;28 - 00;25;51;01
I think with powders and stuff.

00;25;51;01 - 00;25;53;07
So, give me some of your
give me a summary of what your.

00;25;53;07 - 00;25;56;16
Digital fingerprint technology
technologies

00;25;56;16 - 00;25;58;23
really break into two main areas.

00;25;58;23 - 00;26;00;09
One is finger mark enhancement.

00;26;00;09 - 00;26;03;14
So that would be
we've got to develop the fingerprints.

00;26;03;25 - 00;26;07;16
And so, one of the products
that we're sort of synonymous

00;26;07;16 - 00;26;11;16
with is signs like fuming,
which is so evaporating superglue.

00;26;12;22 - 00;26;13;15
And that's probably one of

00;26;13;15 - 00;26;17;06
the most longest standing techniques
for a fingerprint enhancement.

00;26;17;24 - 00;26;20;10
So, we develop cabinets for that.

00;26;20;10 - 00;26;22;11
We also have some novel techniques,
like many of us

00;26;22;11 - 00;26;25;11
like about recover, but we've also got
their infrared fingerprint powders.

00;26;25;20 - 00;26;27;07
And then once you've developed
these fingerprints

00;26;27;07 - 00;26;28;07
where you need to image them

00;26;28;07 - 00;26;32;01
and a fingerprint
imaging is an art and it's in its own

00;26;32;01 - 00;26;36;15
right, it's great if you've got a black
finger mark on a white piece of paper,

00;26;37;15 - 00;26;40;25
but when you haven't, it gets a little bit
more, a little bit more interesting.

00;26;40;25 - 00;26;47;06
So, we have imaging workstations
from more automated, simple to use to

00;26;47;27 - 00;26;53;09
much, much more advanced kind of pro-grade
SLR camera driven systems as well.

00;26;53;23 - 00;26;54;10
Okay.

00;26;54;10 - 00;26;56;19
On the laser side,
I mean, you have a bunch of stuff there.

00;26;56;19 - 00;26;58;21
And I know that when you did
the presentation, you talked a lot about,

00;26;58;21 - 00;27;00;20
you know, infrared
and things that fluoresce

00;27;00;20 - 00;27;01;23
and all kinds of stuff like that.

00;27;01;23 - 00;27;04;00
So, and I see the chrome light.

00;27;04;00 - 00;27;04;27
There's a whole bunch of things.

00;27;04;27 - 00;27;07;17
So yeah, a quick, quick summary. The

00;27;09;05 - 00;27;09;16
customer.

00;27;09;16 - 00;27;13;02
Freeman, I guess, and Crime
Light are two words that you often hear.

00;27;13;11 - 00;27;14;27
They go hand in on. We

00;27;14;27 - 00;27;18;28
we were the first company that introduced
an LSD based forensic light source.

00;27;19;11 - 00;27;22;17
Before that, people were using things
like xenon off lamps, halogen lights.

00;27;22;17 - 00;27;24;03
They were filtering the light.

00;27;24;03 - 00;27;27;17
The problem we have with that, of course,
is that the intensity

00;27;29;00 - 00;27;29;23
output a day.

00;27;29;23 - 00;27;33;28
Why is difference in intensity
a day to day three, day four, you don't

00;27;34;02 - 00;27;36;20
you don't have the ability
to finally filter

00;27;36;20 - 00;27;38;20
the light in the same way
that you do in early days.

00;27;38;20 - 00;27;41;28
So, when the LEDs came onto the market
in the late nineties,

00;27;43;00 - 00;27;44;07
it was something that we saw.

00;27;44;07 - 00;27;46;13
Yeah,
there's actually some application here.

00;27;46;13 - 00;27;47;28
And so, we actually

00;27;48;26 - 00;27;50;17
took that on and

00;27;50;17 - 00;27;53;13
we developed the crime light
and that's kind of gone

00;27;53;13 - 00;27;57;29
on from single leads
to really very intense 16 day,

00;27;58;00 - 00;28;01;22
really high output intensity, hand-held
light sources.

00;28;02;04 - 00;28;05;23
We developed a laser product
that we launched a year ago as well.

00;28;06;03 - 00;28;09;14
So, taking something that would be the size
of a small suitcase,

00;28;10;13 - 00;28;15;06
which would be your arc to typical lasers,
to something that is handheld,

00;28;15;06 - 00;28;19;03
really portable, untethered battery
powered to the crime scene.

00;28;20;09 - 00;28;23;29
And then I guess that's really culminated
in the crime light Auto,

00;28;23;29 - 00;28;29;23
which is taking all of our crime
light technology and know how

00;28;29;28 - 00;28;32;28
and all of our imaging expertise
and putting it all together

00;28;33;01 - 00;28;36;06
and having a handheld system
that you can take out to a crime scene,

00;28;37;08 - 00;28;41;10
use a range of multi-spectral
imaging, cross across the spectrum, U.V.

00;28;41;10 - 00;28;45;12
visible infrared, capture
the image, send it onto an app,

00;28;45;12 - 00;28;47;15
and then send it
straight, straight back to the laboratory.

00;28;47;15 - 00;28;49;16
So, times have changed.

00;28;49;16 - 00;28;53;01
The
the practitioner needs have changed

00;28;53;01 - 00;28;56;29
and the requirements to do things
methodically.

00;28;56;29 - 00;29;01;13
They record things as you go is driven the
evolution of that particular technology.

00;29;01;13 - 00;29;04;25
So yeah, that's been a really interesting
journey over the last ten years.

00;29;04;25 - 00;29;05;19
I'd say.

00;29;05;19 - 00;29;08;19
Now with all these products
and even with the question

00;29;08;28 - 00;29;10;18
document examination area,

00;29;10;18 - 00;29;14;06
are you doing is it pretty much products
or are you doing services as well.

00;29;16;18 - 00;29;18;08
In terms of.

00;29;18;08 - 00;29;19;01
For example.

00;29;19;01 - 00;29;22;00
Yeah, somebody's got a difficult
Yeah, like a case.

00;29;22;00 - 00;29;24;21
No, we, we generally don't say

00;29;24;21 - 00;29;27;28
generally
we don't do anything like that in-house.

00;29;27;28 - 00;29;30;28
We have supported in instances where

00;29;32;15 - 00;29;35;29
a particular technology
might be required for a particular case.

00;29;35;29 - 00;29;41;25
That was a cold case actually
in, in the US where we used the recover

00;29;42;10 - 00;29;45;15
technology on an item of evidence
that was from that.

00;29;45;22 - 00;29;48;17
I was a 38-year-old cold case

00;29;48;17 - 00;29;51;17
and we developed the mark
that actually identified the individual

00;29;52;02 - 00;29;55;09
and that was,
that was an instance where it was, well,

00;29;55;09 - 00;29;56;09
we haven't got anything else.

00;29;56;09 - 00;29;59;06
We've tried everything
we've heard about this technology.

00;29;59;06 - 00;30;00;19
Can we give it a go?

00;30;00;19 - 00;30;01;18
And so, we did.

00;30;01;18 - 00;30;06;02
And it's good to work
really closely with them, with forces

00;30;06;12 - 00;30;10;14
on the front line
to give them some product

00;30;11;04 - 00;30;14;10
where they need it, when they need it,
and try and support it in that way.

00;30;14;21 - 00;30;15;23
Okay.

00;30;15;23 - 00;30;18;23
So, on the question documents, again,
there’re three areas here

00;30;18;24 - 00;30;21;02
and under the laboratory systems,
which I'll bring it up here,

00;30;21;02 - 00;30;23;12
let's talk about the ESD two.
That's this one product.

00;30;23;12 - 00;30;24;20
And there is an interesting case here.

00;30;24;20 - 00;30;26;07
Can you
can you talk about the case that you

00;30;26;07 - 00;30;27;29
where you use this particular instance.
Right.

00;30;27;29 - 00;30;29;13
So, the as the whole.

00;30;29;13 - 00;30;33;20
Yes. The ag electrostatic
detection apparatus and that is

00;30;34;16 - 00;30;39;16
pretty much the product that started
Boston Freeman back in the late seventies.

00;30;39;16 - 00;30;45;11
So, the company was officially formed
in 1978 and an interesting background

00;30;45;11 - 00;30;50;00
because this this product is synonymous
with question, document examination.

00;30;50;08 - 00;30;54;01
Every question, document, lab,
laboratory will have an answer in there.

00;30;55;17 - 00;30;57;08
The process

00;30;57;08 - 00;31;00;13
as it's used today is primarily

00;31;00;13 - 00;31;03;13
for developing indented, writing on paper.

00;31;03;21 - 00;31;06;21
So, when you
when you're writing with a pen,

00;31;07;17 - 00;31;09;18
obviously, several sheets below that,

00;31;09;18 - 00;31;13;16
you can't see any visible indentations
for the most part,

00;31;13;28 - 00;31;17;08
the as has the ability
to reveal those indentations.

00;31;17;08 - 00;31;22;22
Now when that product when the research
was going into this particular product

00;31;22;22 - 00;31;26;08
in the in the seventies by the company
owners Doug Foster and Bob Freeman

00;31;26;25 - 00;31;31;17
they were they were working on a project
for the London College of Printing

00;31;31;22 - 00;31;36;05
and there their project scope
was to develop a non-contact

00;31;36;26 - 00;31;40;05
technique
for developing fingerprints on fabrics.

00;31;40;24 - 00;31;43;24
And they came up with these selectors
static approach

00;31;43;28 - 00;31;47;23
and it didn't really work
for developing fingerprints or fabrics.

00;31;47;23 - 00;31;51;11
It does work at developing
fresh fingerprints on some surfaces,

00;31;51;11 - 00;31;54;11
but for the most part, it kind of failed
in what it set out to do.

00;31;54;13 - 00;31;58;20
What they did find, again, one of these
one kind of serendipitous observations

00;31;58;20 - 00;32;02;00
was that they were able
to develop these indentations

00;32;02;07 - 00;32;05;20
and they then work quite closely
with the UK police.

00;32;05;20 - 00;32;09;10
And as you've got on the screen there,
the very first case

00;32;10;06 - 00;32;12;10
in the late seventies was

00;32;12;10 - 00;32;17;12
there was a bank robbery in London
and the that was a note

00;32;17;12 - 00;32;19;26
that was handed over to the
to the bank teller

00;32;19;26 - 00;32;24;14
and the police ended up taking that note
and using this

00;32;24;14 - 00;32;27;27
as the process, which wasn't a
it wasn't a technology at the time.

00;32;27;27 - 00;32;30;11
It wasn't
something that had been launched. Sorry.

00;32;30;11 - 00;32;35;08
And they actually developed
some indentations that was

00;32;35;10 - 00;32;40;02
that was basically a letter
to somebody in Canada asking them,

00;32;40;08 - 00;32;43;23
pleading with them to send money
to an address in Surrey, in the UK.

00;32;44;16 - 00;32;47;05
The police then went to that address
and found the person

00;32;47;05 - 00;32;50;13
that had committed this
this particular robbery.

00;32;50;13 - 00;32;56;18
So that was the moment whereby Doug
Foster and Bob Freeman realized

00;32;56;18 - 00;33;00;22
they had something pretty powerful
and they developed the ASA.

00;33;00;22 - 00;33;03;23
They started building it from there,
from that shed, from that

00;33;03;23 - 00;33;07;01
from the garage, the hometown in London.

00;33;07;12 - 00;33;11;03
And, and the company really sort of
formed off the back of that.

00;33;11;03 - 00;33;14;07
So, question document
examination really started.

00;33;14;07 - 00;33;15;03
Foster and Freeman.

00;33;15;03 - 00;33;17;22
It's at the very heart of what we do.

00;33;17;22 - 00;33;20;29
But as you say,
the way that forensics work is

00;33;21;13 - 00;33;24;22
you borrow technologies from certain areas
to apply them in others,

00;33;24;22 - 00;33;26;27
and we've branched out
as a function of that

00;33;26;27 - 00;33;29;01
to those full value streams
that you mentioned.

00;33;29;01 - 00;33;29;13
Okay.

00;33;29;13 - 00;33;33;14
So, what is the these
DSC instruments do for you?

00;33;35;01 - 00;33;35;10
Okay.

00;33;35;10 - 00;33;38;10
So, the VSC is a video spectral comparator

00;33;38;26 - 00;33;41;26
and there are a range of the assays
from the

00;33;42;08 - 00;33;45;29
at the more entry level or the more basic

00;33;45;29 - 00;33;48;20
in terms of functionality
to what you've got on the screen.

00;33;48;20 - 00;33;51;19
Now on the left-hand side of the SC 8000,

00;33;51;21 - 00;33;54;21
that's also a flagship VSC system.

00;33;55;15 - 00;33;57;15
They allow this

00;33;57;15 - 00;34;00;20
the examiner
whether it be on the front line,

00;34;00;20 - 00;34;04;00
whether it be secondary
and tertiary examination

00;34;04;00 - 00;34;09;08
in the sort of back offices
or in a laboratory to analyze

00;34;09;26 - 00;34;13;01
suspect documents, identity cards,

00;34;13;29 - 00;34;17;05
anything that you can sit
in, that sort of thing

00;34;17;18 - 00;34;21;17
inside the actual unit, we can examine it
with a range of light sources,

00;34;22;14 - 00;34;26;19
a range of different
imaging techniques and technologies,

00;34;27;00 - 00;34;33;18
and it allows you to confirm authenticity
to look for any fraudulent activity,

00;34;33;18 - 00;34;38;28
any kind of obliteration, anything suspect
that may have happened to a document

00;34;40;00 - 00;34;43;00
is what the VSC is really designed to do.

00;34;44;05 - 00;34;46;14
You have bank

00;34;46;14 - 00;34;48;29
banks use them for authenticating

00;34;48;29 - 00;34;52;24
and looking at security features
in in bank notes, for example.

00;34;53;09 - 00;34;56;09
But it's a really powerful tool
that just allows you to

00;34;56;12 - 00;34;59;15
to take a piece of evidence
generally something that's flat

00;35;00;25 - 00;35;02;18
and interrogate it

00;35;02;18 - 00;35;05;12
optically and kind of learn from it.

00;35;05;12 - 00;35;07;19
It's a video spectral comparator.

00;35;07;19 - 00;35;12;05
The idea being that you compare it
to a known unknown standard

00;35;12;05 - 00;35;15;05
or something that you believe to be

00;35;16;03 - 00;35;17;07
believed to be true.

00;35;17;07 - 00;35;17;23
Okay, great.

00;35;17;23 - 00;35;20;24
So, with the with different wavelengths,
you may be able to separate

00;35;20;24 - 00;35;23;05
one type of thing
versus another or something.

00;35;23;05 - 00;35;26;17
A classic example is a is a is a check
that's been written.

00;35;26;17 - 00;35;28;06
We don't really do checks anymore. Right.

00;35;28;06 - 00;35;30;20
But it has been written
for a certain amount

00;35;30;20 - 00;35;33;20
and then someone's added an extra zero
on the end of it.

00;35;33;28 - 00;35;37;14
Well, with the VSC quite often
once the visibly may look

00;35;37;14 - 00;35;40;27
the same glowing black ink, red
ink or whatever,

00;35;41;24 - 00;35;44;14
when you illuminate them
at different parts of the spectrum,

00;35;44;14 - 00;35;47;29
there are some very fine differences
that you can often say in terms of

00;35;48;00 - 00;35;51;00
efflorescence, in terms of our absorption
or their reflection.

00;35;51;05 - 00;35;53;25
And the VSC allows you
to differentiate those

00;35;53;25 - 00;35;57;02
and to sort of say,
okay, that has some things going on here.

00;35;57;19 - 00;36;02;06
A similar sort of example
is deeds of a house or a will.

00;36;02;06 - 00;36;04;14
If pages have been inserted.

00;36;04;14 - 00;36;08;00
There are things that you can look for
in terms of the type or into

00;36;08;02 - 00;36;11;29
or in terms of the spacing
of different fluorescent

00;36;11;29 - 00;36;16;04
properties of the actual of the inks
or of the actual paper itself.

00;36;16;13 - 00;36;19;03
And that's what the where
the VC's really come into their own.

00;36;19;03 - 00;36;22;12
And we have a range of them
because we appreciate the fact that

00;36;22;28 - 00;36;27;08
if your, for example, immigration
and your so for a non border inspection

00;36;27;17 - 00;36;31;02
you need a different set of tools in a
in a small footprint

00;36;31;10 - 00;36;34;14
than you might have
when you're kind of back in the laboratory

00;36;34;14 - 00;36;38;10
where you need as much as you
as you can possibly have. You

00;36;40;09 - 00;36;43;08
look a while
back, we had we had a discussion about,

00;36;43;08 - 00;36;46;24
you know, using 3D technologies for an eye
question, documents and stuff like that.

00;36;47;02 - 00;36;50;01
And so, I'm curious about how,

00;36;50;20 - 00;36;53;11
you know, what first prompted
your interest in that particular area,

00;36;53;11 - 00;36;55;10
because I know
there are some papers out there

00;36;55;10 - 00;36;58;03
and I've had some other guests
talking about question documents,

00;36;58;03 - 00;36;59;25
and they've just been
a little bit of work in there.

00;36;59;25 - 00;37;04;00
But it seems relatively new that there's
still a lot of work to be done

00;37;04;00 - 00;37;05;17
in that particular field.

00;37;05;17 - 00;37;08;27
Yeah, I think historically we have

00;37;08;27 - 00;37;11;27
we have developed ways to

00;37;12;28 - 00;37;16;13
allow the end user
to observe and interrogate

00;37;17;12 - 00;37;19;14
three dimensional features.

00;37;19;14 - 00;37;22;18
Now, when we look at
when we look at images,

00;37;23;11 - 00;37;26;11
forensic images, there
we see a two dimensional

00;37;26;20 - 00;37;29;27
representation of something,
but we live in a three-dimensional world.

00;37;29;27 - 00;37;35;13
And so, you know, it is true to say that
when you interrogate things on the z-axis,

00;37;35;13 - 00;37;36;03
there's probably more

00;37;36;03 - 00;37;39;04
another layer of information,
another dimension of information

00;37;39;22 - 00;37;40;18
that that to be had.

00;37;40;18 - 00;37;45;01
And what we've tried to do
as the technology has evolved is

00;37;46;26 - 00;37;48;09
develop

00;37;48;09 - 00;37;50;28
complementary lighting that has allowed us

00;37;50;28 - 00;37;54;14
to get the best out of that
three-dimensional profile.

00;37;54;14 - 00;37;58;18
Now we know that there are tactile
features on identity cards and passports,

00;37;58;18 - 00;37;59;28
and so, we can feel them.

00;37;59;28 - 00;38;03;00
We need to be able to imagine and that's
quite difficult sometimes, you know,

00;38;03;07 - 00;38;06;07
you rely on
when you've got a camera above something,

00;38;07;05 - 00;38;11;09
you rely on, effectively illuminating it
in a way

00;38;11;09 - 00;38;15;06
that gives you like lowlights
and highlights and everything in between.

00;38;16;18 - 00;38;20;02
And we develop the technology

00;38;20;02 - 00;38;23;08
to a point
where we were able to do that pretty well.

00;38;23;08 - 00;38;26;15
Side lighting is really effective,
actually, illumination, all these kinds of

00;38;27;19 - 00;38;29;09
tools and tricks.

00;38;29;09 - 00;38;34;10
But more recently we introduced a process
called Photometric Stereo,

00;38;34;17 - 00;38;38;29
and Photometric Stereo is effectively
and it simply stands

00;38;39;12 - 00;38;44;15
where you illuminate from different angles
all the way around a particular subject.

00;38;44;26 - 00;38;47;26
So, you have subjects in the middle
and you illuminate all the way around,

00;38;47;26 - 00;38;50;13
and you can do that
at different parts of the spectrum.

00;38;50;13 - 00;38;52;25
But what that does is it creates.

00;38;52;25 - 00;38;55;21
Yeah, in that instance
I saw the limited sign.

00;38;55;21 - 00;38;58;16
You can see that
that the image in the middle there is

00;39;00;08 - 00;39;01;07
each one of those is

00;39;01;07 - 00;39;04;07
a snapshot from an illumination
at a different angle.

00;39;04;07 - 00;39;06;19
And when you build that composite image,

00;39;06;19 - 00;39;09;06
you can get all of that
detail come together.

00;39;09;06 - 00;39;10;00
So, the image on the right.

00;39;10;00 - 00;39;17;08
So that's where we had got up to
with the 3D imaging within the bases.

00;39;17;08 - 00;39;21;15
And it was a really, really powerful tool.

00;39;21;15 - 00;39;24;15
And when we launched it
only a couple of years back,

00;39;24;22 - 00;39;28;04
people were seeing
some really impressive results from it.

00;39;28;04 - 00;39;31;18
But I guess the question then is, well,
what's the where's the application?

00;39;31;29 - 00;39;34;21
How do we how we relate what we're seeing?

00;39;34;21 - 00;39;37;01
Yes, it's nice to have these great images.

00;39;37;01 - 00;39;41;04
How do we relate that
to a particular forensic challenge?

00;39;41;04 - 00;39;42;19
And that's really

00;39;42;19 - 00;39;46;13
what this paper tried to address a little
bit more, because we had

00;39;47;20 - 00;39;48;03
we had

00;39;48;03 - 00;39;51;28
within our own
sort of research and development team done

00;39;51;28 - 00;39;57;26
quite a lot of applications exercises
looking at the power of Photometric area.

00;39;57;26 - 00;40;02;02
And we were we were aware that actually
one of the longest standing challenges

00;40;02;02 - 00;40;06;17
for question document examiners
examiners are intersecting lines.

00;40;06;17 - 00;40;08;29
So, where you have to pin strokes

00;40;08;29 - 00;40;12;18
to understand the sequence of those lines
is really, really quite difficult.

00;40;12;18 - 00;40;15;20
And there are instrumental techniques

00;40;15;20 - 00;40;19;16
that are highly sophisticated
using seriously expensive equipment

00;40;19;24 - 00;40;24;02
that can to some extent
give you some degree of objectivity.

00;40;25;11 - 00;40;27;25
But it's not in the platform

00;40;27;25 - 00;40;31;20
or the all the kind of entity the question
document examiners are used to using.

00;40;32;28 - 00;40;36;12
And so, we wanted to try and delve
a little bit deeper into the application

00;40;36;12 - 00;40;39;27
of Photometric area,
because we had seen that we could see some

00;40;40;04 - 00;40;43;09
pretty significant differences
that allowed us to say,

00;40;43;23 - 00;40;46;19
you know, in a in a
let's say a blind study,

00;40;46;19 - 00;40;50;05
you could quite easily discern
which there was the first stroke,

00;40;50;05 - 00;40;50;29
which was the second.

00;40;50;29 - 00;40;54;07
So, what we tried to do with this
particular piece of work was said, okay,

00;40;54;07 - 00;40;59;06
well, we know photometric
so, as it has some benefits to,

00;41;00;19 - 00;41;05;11
to forensic science in
terms of the analysis of some documents.

00;41;05;11 - 00;41;07;11
There were other applications as well.

00;41;07;11 - 00;41;11;12
But actually, let's try and put that
into some sort of context in terms

00;41;11;12 - 00;41;14;16
of the applications that you might have
where it can come in useful.

00;41;14;23 - 00;41;18;21
And then building on from that,
this particular paper

00;41;19;07 - 00;41;23;11
then took things a little bit further
in terms of another type of imaging,

00;41;23;11 - 00;41;26;26
which is elastomeric sensor imaging,
which was

00;41;28;14 - 00;41;31;14
kind of a completely abstract

00;41;32;19 - 00;41;33;03
approach.

00;41;33;03 - 00;41;37;15
Utilization of a piece of technology,
which I'd happen to have seen was I think,

00;41;37;24 - 00;41;41;19
truly linked in actually, and I'd seen
that there was this technology,

00;41;42;09 - 00;41;45;22
this last elastomeric sensor
imaging that was being used for

00;41;46;03 - 00;41;50;01
the analysis of surface
defects on different metals.

00;41;50;01 - 00;41;53;14
So, during the manufacturing process thing
to ensure that you had

00;41;53;17 - 00;41;56;16
a particular grading pattern
or what have you,

00;41;56;25 - 00;42;00;18
and the resolution on the sensitivity
seemed to be really high.

00;42;00;27 - 00;42;04;14
But one of the things that interested me
and the guys that we were working with on

00;42;04;14 - 00;42;06;18
this project was that you were able

00;42;06;18 - 00;42;10;28
to use that particular modality
to give you a degree of quantification

00;42;12;07 - 00;42;12;19
to make sure.

00;42;12;19 - 00;42;14;20
So, I was very good
at seeing these differences

00;42;14;20 - 00;42;16;15
and presenting them
as what you've got on the screen, that

00;42;16;15 - 00;42;19;21
which is like a bump map where you can see
the from the relief pattern,

00;42;21;21 - 00;42;24;16
but it's harder to discern depth

00;42;24;16 - 00;42;27;16
and what are what we were trying to

00;42;28;09 - 00;42;30;16
establish with this paper was,

00;42;30;16 - 00;42;33;16
is what we're seeing
with Photometric Stereo, where you can

00;42;33;16 - 00;42;37;20
clearly see that there are differences
in pressure points and that is

00;42;37;20 - 00;42;42;01
that directly related, as we suspected,
to quantifiable measurements.

00;42;42;01 - 00;42;45;12
And we would our plan was to use
the elastomeric sensor imaging or

00;42;45;23 - 00;42;48;23
on the gel side product to kind of

00;42;49;17 - 00;42;52;22
complete that that kind of hypothesis,
if you will.

00;42;53;20 - 00;42;56;27
And so, we used the two,
the two different technologies

00;42;57;00 - 00;42;59;29
in a complementary manner
to kind of prove that actually, yes,

00;42;59;29 - 00;43;03;26
that is that is the case
and is a really interesting piece of work.

00;43;04;04 - 00;43;07;27
Obviously couldn't have done it
without the coauthors, who to some extent

00;43;07;27 - 00;43;11;24
have a lot more experience
in question document and

00;43;12;09 - 00;43;15;01
and the analysis
of this kind of data than I do.

00;43;15;01 - 00;43;18;11
But it was good to kind of take something
that you found to think, well,

00;43;18;11 - 00;43;19;17
actually that's

00;43;19;17 - 00;43;22;24
that's got a really interesting
application for the automotive industry,

00;43;22;24 - 00;43;26;04
but I can really see some benefits
to forensic science,

00;43;26;04 - 00;43;28;24
and that's having a little bit of a
look at it.

00;43;28;24 - 00;43;33;04
If Photometric Stereo I and I knew this
from a while ago doing some research

00;43;33;04 - 00;43;35;17
is that it's really good
for very fine details,

00;43;35;17 - 00;43;38;18
but it's often prone to distortions
over larger areas.

00;43;39;22 - 00;43;43;27
So, I guess that's why people don't use it
for like very big models or whatever

00;43;43;27 - 00;43;44;29
it is, has to be a very small area.

00;43;44;29 - 00;43;48;08
So, and I noticed in your paper
you did mention that what you call like

00;43;48;08 - 00;43;51;08
low frequency distortions
and things like that,

00;43;51;10 - 00;43;54;28
but gel side
I had known about from Padre Forensics,

00;43;54;28 - 00;43;58;13
they use it for ballistics or for,
you know, cartridge cases and things.

00;43;58;22 - 00;44;02;04
And so, it's an interesting technology,
but it is a contact technology. So

00;44;03;07 - 00;44;06;13
although I think that's
one of what was one of the things that,

00;44;06;25 - 00;44;09;25
you know, with any piece of research
that you present,

00;44;10;22 - 00;44;14;08
it's important to kind of discuss it
from all angles

00;44;14;08 - 00;44;17;13
and talk about the strengths,
weaknesses, limitations, applications.

00;44;17;25 - 00;44;22;02
And I think one of the things that we
we did kind of conclude with

00;44;22;12 - 00;44;26;10
with that particular technique
in its current form

00;44;26;15 - 00;44;30;02
and there are some thoughts about how
it could be exploited in a different way.

00;44;30;25 - 00;44;33;26
Was that because you were making contact

00;44;33;26 - 00;44;36;25
with the, the, the sample?

00;44;37;12 - 00;44;40;19
We did have questions as to how

00;44;41;01 - 00;44;44;04
from a repeatability perspective,
if you did

00;44;44;16 - 00;44;47;25
ten scans, would it look the same
on the 10th as it does on the first?

00;44;47;25 - 00;44;51;08
Because you're naturally depressing the
the particular sample.

00;44;51;08 - 00;44;54;08
So, I think it will really depend
on what you're looking at.

00;44;54;17 - 00;44;55;06
But if it

00;44;56;10 - 00;44;57;03
but we also

00;44;57;03 - 00;45;00;05
saw in some instances
where we were looking at

00;45;00;16 - 00;45;02;09
specific things,
we were seeing that we were getting

00;45;02;09 - 00;45;04;17
some transfer
onto the bottom of the gel pad.

00;45;04;17 - 00;45;08;21
This on the device we had, we
so, we have obviously had to clean it off.

00;45;08;21 - 00;45;11;28
And so
so, there are obviously where you can be

00;45;11;29 - 00;45;15;10
non-contact is better some.

00;45;15;17 - 00;45;19;14
How much pressure you actually
putting on the device or the gel.

00;45;20;29 - 00;45;23;23
So, it was a bit of a trial and error

00;45;23;23 - 00;45;26;23
kind of approach and we ended up

00;45;27;11 - 00;45;30;21
kind of doing it almost to feel

00;45;31;15 - 00;45;35;09
that there comes a point where certainly
with the samples that we were looking at,

00;45;35;24 - 00;45;39;15
you can press harder and harder,
but you don't see any

00;45;39;15 - 00;45;43;07
any further changes
to the to the values that were coming out.

00;45;43;07 - 00;45;45;09
And that was kind of our on-set point.

00;45;45;09 - 00;45;48;29
I believe that that this
that the application that Padre forensics

00;45;48;29 - 00;45;53;22
are using for their ballistics
examination, they apply a fixed pressure

00;45;54;06 - 00;45;58;02
which is absolutely the right way
to go about it, because

00;45;58;17 - 00;46;02;02
then you can be sure that you've got
that reliability in that repeatability.

00;46;02;17 - 00;46;04;24
The problem, of course,
is it's a contact process.

00;46;04;24 - 00;46;06;07
So, you're going to have contact transfer

00;46;07;16 - 00;46;10;16
and then you get into the rounds of, well,

00;46;10;23 - 00;46;14;03
cross-contamination, DNA, etc., etc..

00;46;14;24 - 00;46;15;22
Is the is the.

00;46;15;22 - 00;46;17;29
Gel just called a gel pad?

00;46;17;29 - 00;46;19;15
I'm not sure was properly termed.

00;46;19;15 - 00;46;22;14
But is it
something that is, you know, good for,

00;46;22;14 - 00;46;24;03
you know, hundreds of scans
or hundreds of.

00;46;24;03 - 00;46;28;11
Yeah, it depends, it depends on the on

00;46;28;12 - 00;46;31;29
on the particular application
and the pressure that's being used.

00;46;32;07 - 00;46;35;26
They have a high sensitivity
and a low sensitivity gel.

00;46;35;26 - 00;46;38;26
So, I said I guess
a different chemical composition,

00;46;38;29 - 00;46;41;29
but you’re right a gel pad
and it's got a

00;46;42;23 - 00;46;45;23
like a silver coating on one side

00;46;46;11 - 00;46;47;19
and it's good stuff.

00;46;47;19 - 00;46;47;28
Yeah.

00;46;47;28 - 00;46;50;03
Hundreds
into the thousands of applications

00;46;50;03 - 00;46;53;03
depending on what
your what you're doing with it,

00;46;53;03 - 00;46;56;28
it can be cleaned down in between runs
and they're relatively cheap

00;46;56;28 - 00;47;00;06
I think to, to replace
the consumable side of things.

00;47;00;17 - 00;47;01;26
Okay So let me ask you this.

00;47;01;26 - 00;47;06;07
You've got the Photometric Stereo,
you've got the gel side system, the like

00;47;06;07 - 00;47;07;07
the last summer,

00;47;08;07 - 00;47;09;22
you know, this job had or whatever.

00;47;09;22 - 00;47;11;09
So, what was the test

00;47;11;09 - 00;47;14;23
that you performed with each of these
and what did each of the results show?

00;47;15;13 - 00;47;19;00
So, what you've
what you've got on the screen, that was

00;47;19;00 - 00;47;20;03
was our starting point.

00;47;20;03 - 00;47;23;11
We were we
if you just maybe scroll up a little.

00;47;23;11 - 00;47;25;00
Yeah. We

00;47;25;00 - 00;47;27;19
we had a donor

00;47;27;19 - 00;47;30;19
basically, write that signature.

00;47;30;25 - 00;47;33;05
We did it so eight times.

00;47;33;05 - 00;47;37;15
But two of those instances we asked them
to do the signature in reverse.

00;47;38;17 - 00;47;41;04
And we did that at different points
across that.

00;47;41;04 - 00;47;42;20
We didn't just do that right at end.

00;47;42;20 - 00;47;43;10
We did it kind of

00;47;43;10 - 00;47;46;21
in the middle of the sequence of eight
because we wanted to interrupt the

00;47;47;07 - 00;47;50;28
the kind of regularity of the process and

00;47;52;00 - 00;47;53;24
quite
obviously, just from looking at these,

00;47;53;24 - 00;47;58;19
you can see which two have been done
as the unnatural

00;47;59;25 - 00;48;02;02
method, but that wasn't the point.

00;48;02;02 - 00;48;04;14
This work, it wasn't an experience.

00;48;04;14 - 00;48;07;21
Question Document examiners would easily
be able to say well that on there is

00;48;07;21 - 00;48;11;00
is a is
that is not an authentic signature.

00;48;11;00 - 00;48;14;29
But what we were trying to show
was what when you're when you're kind of

00;48;14;29 - 00;48;18;21
doing things in a certain reliable,
repeatable manner,

00;48;19;10 - 00;48;23;05
you get certain grooves
in different formations on the paper.

00;48;23;16 - 00;48;28;20
When that changes, then so do
so does the three-dimensional effects

00;48;28;20 - 00;48;31;20
that you're imparting
on, on the actual surface.

00;48;32;01 - 00;48;35;27
And so, we, we got one of the guys to it
to do the signature.

00;48;35;27 - 00;48;39;07
We then analyzed it, as you can see here,
this is with Photometric Stereo

00;48;39;18 - 00;48;40;29
and you can clearly see that on

00;48;40;29 - 00;48;44;22
what we were looking for was the changes
at the intersections or changes where

00;48;44;22 - 00;48;45;17
there's a, a

00;48;47;04 - 00;48;49;16
a discontinuation
of the of the flow of the stroke.

00;48;49;16 - 00;48;52;16
So, where you're going up
and then straight down,

00;48;52;19 - 00;48;55;08
we were we were interested
in those particular areas.

00;48;55;08 - 00;48;59;04
And what we what we found was,
as we suspected that we were getting

00;48;59;04 - 00;49;03;17
complete differences at the intersections
where the lines crossed

00;49;03;17 - 00;49;07;24
and we were getting a difference in the
where the actual

00;49;08;12 - 00;49;11;20
the depth profile was
was being carved out into the paper,

00;49;12;04 - 00;49;15;04
where the substrate where the signature
was being done in reverse.

00;49;16;07 - 00;49;16;27
Interesting.

00;49;16;27 - 00;49;19;12
And the that was the photometric stereo.

00;49;19;12 - 00;49;25;02
And then so we had the images there
and then we then took those intersections

00;49;25;02 - 00;49;29;14
and we looked at them with the gel side
so that we could understand,

00;49;29;14 - 00;49;32;21
quantify a play,
the difference in the depth profile.

00;49;32;21 - 00;49;36;18
So, there you can see the GSI images
of those particular areas

00;49;37;09 - 00;49;42;14
and below each of those is an actual it's
effectively a surface profile.

00;49;43;17 - 00;49;45;01
And you can quite clearly

00;49;45;01 - 00;49;48;26
see the jump
where the paper goes into the pen

00;49;49;17 - 00;49;52;17
and we were able to kind of,

00;49;52;19 - 00;49;55;06
I guess, substantiate

00;49;55;06 - 00;49;59;26
photometric stereo findings
with the Elastomeric sensor

00;50;00;03 - 00;50;05;25
imaging findings as well, is that that was
the start at starting point of the work.

00;50;05;25 - 00;50;08;25
And then we did some other work looking at

00;50;09;01 - 00;50;12;01
the sequence of panning

00;50;12;12 - 00;50;14;28
with toner that was printed on.

00;50;14;28 - 00;50;20;09
So, can you tell whether it's quite hard
optically sometimes to, to discern

00;50;20;09 - 00;50;24;11
whether a pen stroke is above or below
an area of toner?

00;50;25;08 - 00;50;27;22
And so, this example here,

00;50;27;22 - 00;50;30;27
we were able to differentiate the two
because we could see the difference

00;50;30;27 - 00;50;34;06
in depth profile
between when the toner was applied

00;50;34;06 - 00;50;37;05
on top of the pen stroke or
when the toner was applied below the pen.

00;50;37;14 - 00;50;39;28
It gave you
a completely different profile.

00;50;39;28 - 00;50;41;27
Now, the again,
we talked about the profile.

00;50;41;27 - 00;50;44;09
You look at that cross-section
when you cut across it or whatever.

00;50;44;09 - 00;50;46;12
And I think that's really important
part, is

00;50;46;12 - 00;50;49;24
you can quantify it now because you can
say, hey, look, if we compare, you know,

00;50;49;26 - 00;50;54;16
five samples together,
we get this repeatable sort of, you know,

00;50;54;17 - 00;50;59;01
within some tolerance of this,
this, these profiles.

00;50;59;11 - 00;51;03;09
And so that doesn't seem like something
that has really been

00;51;03;25 - 00;51;06;03
presented that way before.
Or has it maybe I'm wrong.

00;51;07;13 - 00;51;10;16
No, but people of people have it's
been looked at.

00;51;10;28 - 00;51;13;14
But certainly

00;51;13;14 - 00;51;15;20
in terms of

00;51;15;20 - 00;51;18;07
what we were trying to do here
was actually have something

00;51;18;07 - 00;51;21;06
which is relatively accessible.

00;51;21;24 - 00;51;25;29
We did some work with the University
of Kent a couple of years back

00;51;26;12 - 00;51;29;25
and we were doing similar
bit of work really, where we were looking

00;51;29;25 - 00;51;32;29
at three-dimensional imaging of question
documents, but we were using

00;51;33;15 - 00;51;36;24
a technique called optical coherence
tomography or CT.

00;51;36;29 - 00;51;41;06
Now typically
you'll see that at the optometrist

00;51;41;06 - 00;51;45;08
when you go to have a scan of the retina
because it's generally used

00;51;45;08 - 00;51;48;08
for imaging biological tissue and getting

00;51;48;19 - 00;51;51;07
getting layers through

00;51;51;07 - 00;51;55;08
biological tissue and building up
a 3D profile of what that looks like.

00;51;55;13 - 00;51;58;13
We wondered whether we use it

00;51;58;13 - 00;52;02;04
to interrogate question documents
in the third dimension.

00;52;02;16 - 00;52;05;24
And we actually published a piece of work
looking at polycarbonate

00;52;06;01 - 00;52;07;23
and the on-identity cards.

00;52;07;23 - 00;52;12;01
You get layers of polycarbonate
and we were able to show the way

00;52;12;01 - 00;52;18;07
that security fibers are embedded within
that particular in the polycarbonate last.

00;52;18;07 - 00;52;21;07
So, whereas when you just have
a two-dimensional image,

00;52;21;08 - 00;52;25;08
you would just see the fiber repairing,
We were now able to show

00;52;25;08 - 00;52;28;08
where it actually appears
in the third dimension as well.

00;52;28;10 - 00;52;32;18
So, people have looked into other ways
of getting

00;52;33;01 - 00;52;36;21
three-dimensional information
from question documents.

00;52;36;21 - 00;52;37;16
But I would say that

00;52;37;16 - 00;52;42;09
this is probably the first bit of work
that's really allowed it to be accessible,

00;52;42;26 - 00;52;47;08
quantifiable and actually put into context
with optical measurements,

00;52;47;17 - 00;52;52;03
meeting up with quantifiable measurements
on the other side as well.

00;52;52;18 - 00;52;55;00
Yeah, I know working in other areas,
for example,

00;52;55;00 - 00;52;58;21
we have a project going on
where we have some interns

00;52;58;21 - 00;53;03;00
looking at footwear impressions
like in the sand, sand or whatever.

00;53;03;07 - 00;53;06;04
And so, the documentation part
is usually the easy part,

00;53;06;04 - 00;53;09;14
so, you can scan it in different methods
and use whatever.

00;53;09;22 - 00;53;11;18
But then the analysis part
is the tricky part

00;53;11;18 - 00;53;15;07
and trying to find the right analysis
method to give you the correct answer

00;53;15;12 - 00;53;18;29
is often difficult, and there's often
a lot of problems with distortion and

00;53;19;04 - 00;53;22;10
and different things,
especially in the case of like a shoe

00;53;22;10 - 00;53;25;29
where the shoe can flex
and then the impression can bend.

00;53;25;29 - 00;53;28;05
And so, you have these distortions
we have to compare.

00;53;29;10 - 00;53;30;19
Like the profiling.

00;53;30;19 - 00;53;34;15
This is something that has been used
for that particular application,

00;53;34;15 - 00;53;35;26
but it's also been tried out.

00;53;35;26 - 00;53;38;26
And I think we reference a paper
or a couple of papers

00;53;39;06 - 00;53;43;28
in this where they've used 3D
laser profilers.

00;53;43;28 - 00;53;48;15
But again, it's more about the
you know, we want to

00;53;48;26 - 00;53;54;02
I think one of the things we're quite
mindful of first frame and is developing

00;53;54;24 - 00;53;58;07
technologies
that not only solve a problem but

00;53;58;24 - 00;54;01;26
actually, are able to be implemented

00;54;02;03 - 00;54;05;13
within solutions
that people are already used to using.

00;54;05;13 - 00;54;08;13
Because when you have that natural

00;54;08;15 - 00;54;12;24
kind of workflow to add an extra tool into
it is so much easier than having

00;54;12;24 - 00;54;18;10
a standalone system that perhaps does
one or two particular things.

00;54;18;10 - 00;54;21;10
It's not going to get the use
that something like a Vasey.

00;54;21;10 - 00;54;22;26
Well, now obviously there's

00;54;22;26 - 00;54;25;19
this commercial trade offs
that need to be made because, you know,

00;54;25;19 - 00;54;29;00
the more you put into something,
obviously the higher the price

00;54;29;13 - 00;54;32;01
of those of the particular
components are.

00;54;32;01 - 00;54;36;04
But also, the complexity goes up
significantly.

00;54;36;11 - 00;54;40;19
So, you know, there are always trade offs
that need to be made.

00;54;40;19 - 00;54;42;22
But for the most part, that's

00;54;42;22 - 00;54;45;27
kind of what we're trying to achieve with
with all elements of research that we do.

00;54;45;27 - 00;54;49;02
But I think the fact that we are doing
the research,

00;54;49;03 - 00;54;53;04
we're more than open
to engaging with collaborations.

00;54;54;06 - 00;54;56;12
I mentioned
about the work with University of Kent,

00;54;56;12 - 00;54;59;18
we couldn't have done that work
because we didn't have an AI system,

00;54;59;25 - 00;55;04;27
but we had the idea to use that particular
technology for a particular challenge.

00;55;05;08 - 00;55;09;16
So, we enjoy kind of embarking
on those kind of voyages

00;55;09;16 - 00;55;13;27
and it's really important for us
to publish the work that we do because not

00;55;13;27 - 00;55;16;27
just for the, you know, for the people
that are involved in the work.

00;55;17;08 - 00;55;19;15
And ultimately when you're a researcher

00;55;19;15 - 00;55;22;19
publishing papers,
I pay you all that sort of stuff.

00;55;22;20 - 00;55;25;26
That is, you know, that's
kind of the feathers in the caps that you

00;55;25;29 - 00;55;27;19
that you like to wear.

00;55;27;19 - 00;55;31;08
But it helps us in terms of,
I guess, our credibility.

00;55;31;08 - 00;55;36;04
It helps us to support the products and
support some of the applications that we,

00;55;36;14 - 00;55;41;00
I guess, as a commercial organization
say that that they can actually perform.

00;55;41;11 - 00;55;43;04
And I think that's really important.

00;55;43;04 - 00;55;47;00
It's something
that, you know, I would say

00;55;48;09 - 00;55;49;05
to help

00;55;49;05 - 00;55;54;17
people in terms of their business case
decision as to in an environment

00;55;54;17 - 00;55;58;19
where validating equipment,
validating techniques, validating

00;55;58;19 - 00;56;03;13
processes are absolutely front and center,
being able to leverage things like this.

00;56;03;13 - 00;56;06;09
This research has been done
can only be a positive step.

00;56;06;09 - 00;56;09;09
So, it kind of I guess it
I guess it benefits everyone, really.

00;56;10;06 - 00;56;10;18
It does.

00;56;10;18 - 00;56;12;20
I mean, it obviously,
I think this is great

00;56;12;20 - 00;56;16;15
because it just embarks in a new area
in in document analysis,

00;56;16;15 - 00;56;18;19
and it opens the door to other things.

00;56;18;19 - 00;56;21;06
And, you know, you've talked about future
work here, right in the paper, right.

00;56;21;06 - 00;56;22;24
So, you're talking about the

00;56;22;24 - 00;56;25;19
interference of stroke direction
of the crossing intersection.

00;56;25;19 - 00;56;27;13
So, what would you like to see happen
there?

00;56;27;13 - 00;56;29;02
Like what kind of studies
are you thinking about there?

00;56;32;02 - 00;56;32;24
Loads of things.

00;56;32;24 - 00;56;37;10
I mean, we we've got an idea
that there is just so many different

00;56;37;10 - 00;56;40;23
different pen
types, different paper types.

00;56;41;07 - 00;56;44;17
When you have different inks as well,
then you have different

00;56;44;17 - 00;56;46;07
optical properties
of those particular ink.

00;56;46;07 - 00;56;49;14
So, does that change the ability

00;56;49;14 - 00;56;52;14
of one particular process the other?

00;56;52;17 - 00;56;54;09
We we've also

00;56;54;09 - 00;56;58;07
kind of thought about things
where you've got stamps, for example,

00;56;58;07 - 00;57;01;28
like passport stamps when they're above
or below different inks,

00;57;02;09 - 00;57;05;12
then that all comes
into comes into the equation.

00;57;05;12 - 00;57;07;17
But I think
one of the one of the key things

00;57;07;17 - 00;57;11;02
in this piece of work is, you know, it's
a pilot study, It's a proof of concept.

00;57;11;02 - 00;57;14;07
There are lots of pilot studies
and proof of concept

00;57;14;26 - 00;57;16;07
publications that are out there.

00;57;16;07 - 00;57;17;13
And one of the things that

00;57;18;13 - 00;57;19;03
I guess is a

00;57;19;03 - 00;57;22;03
frustration not just for me,
but pretty much everybody

00;57;22;09 - 00;57;24;28
I guess, works in the research
environment,

00;57;24;28 - 00;57;29;20
is that it's going from that proof
of concept to exploitation.

00;57;29;20 - 00;57;32;07
And that's the big
that's the big jump that needs to happen.

00;57;32;07 - 00;57;34;10
So, there are some things
that we talk about here in the future

00;57;34;10 - 00;57;37;06
whereby we want to try and do double
blind studies.

00;57;37;06 - 00;57;39;21
We want to try and have a wider
range of donors.

00;57;39;21 - 00;57;43;26
We want to try out on age samples
because naturally

00;57;44;14 - 00;57;47;19
things like that will have an effect
on the plumpness of the fibers in the

00;57;47;19 - 00;57;48;19
in the particular document.

00;57;48;19 - 00;57;50;21
So, there's a whole range of things

00;57;50;21 - 00;57;53;21
and we are just scratching the surface
with this.

00;57;53;24 - 00;57;58;13
But it's
an absolutely crucial step

00;57;58;13 - 00;58;02;16
in the right direction for us to,
I guess, to really develop things

00;58;03;07 - 00;58;06;24
further as I guess the market requires it
to do so.

00;58;07;07 - 00;58;07;14
Yeah.

00;58;07;14 - 00;58;09;25
And I'm curious about because you say that

00;58;09;25 - 00;58;13;26
the 8000 is semi quantitative,
but you do get measurements from it.

00;58;14;12 - 00;58;16;05
Yep. Yep.
You can get measurements from it.

00;58;16;05 - 00;58;21;11
We can,
we can do sort of measurements on the x, Y

00;58;22;18 - 00;58;22;26
and Z.

00;58;22;26 - 00;58;25;01
We can calibrate in that respect.

00;58;25;01 - 00;58;27;08
We have a

00;58;27;08 - 00;58;28;20
spectrophotometer in there as well.

00;58;28;20 - 00;58;30;18
So, we can do

00;58;30;18 - 00;58;33;21
measurements of absorption
reflectance as well.

00;58;34;15 - 00;58;39;16
It's the semi quantification
is to do with C

00;58;39;16 - 00;58;43;02
with the Z axis in terms
of getting that depth measurement.

00;58;43;16 - 00;58;46;06
And that's where we, you know, that's

00;58;46;06 - 00;58;49;06
why we, we use the gel site to generate

00;58;49;28 - 00;58;51;23
compare or. Yeah, Okay, great.

00;58;51;23 - 00;58;52;03
Yeah.

00;58;52;03 - 00;58;55;18
So, I think it's a wonderful area
and I always thought that there was

00;58;55;26 - 00;59;00;13
definitely some utility in 3D
technologies in this particular area.

00;59;00;21 - 00;59;04;21
But as I always said, I know
I usually know where the difficulty is

00;59;04;21 - 00;59;06;00
and that is trying to offer sort

00;59;06;00 - 00;59;09;01
of trying to find the correct technique
and exploring.

00;59;09;01 - 00;59;11;07
Now all these different areas
that you mentioned. Right?

00;59;11;07 - 00;59;13;13
That's going to take quite a bit of work,

00;59;13;13 - 00;59;15;09
you know, the blind testing
and everything else.

00;59;15;09 - 00;59;18;28
But now do you do you partner at all
with universities

00;59;18;28 - 00;59;23;04
and other institutions
like to do research and things like that?

00;59;23;19 - 00;59;24;16
Do people come to you?

00;59;24;16 - 00;59;27;28
Sometimes we try to get involved
as much as possible.

00;59;27;28 - 00;59;30;28
We have a
we have a project on at the minute with a

00;59;30;29 - 00;59;34;25
with the university
not too far from us

00;59;36;29 - 00;59;37;27
and that

00;59;37;27 - 00;59;40;22
loosely we're
likely to create an examination actually.

00;59;40;22 - 00;59;43;22
But we have relationships with probably

00;59;43;29 - 00;59;46;29
another half dozen universities in the UK

00;59;47;06 - 00;59;48;00
police forces.

00;59;48;00 - 00;59;51;00
We try and engage in some research
projects where possible as well.

00;59;51;16 - 00;59;55;00
You know, we appreciate
and we respect that there needs to be

00;59;55;07 - 00;59;58;17
impartiality, see,
and certainly, from the public sector.

00;59;59;01 - 01;00;01;25
And that's one of the reasons
why we like to publish what we do,

01;00;01;25 - 01;00;04;24
because the whole point of publishing work
is that it's transparent,

01;00;05;09 - 01;00;08;06
it is impartial, it is peer reviewed,

01;00;08;06 - 01;00;10;18
and it's for the benefit of the
of the wider community.

01;00;10;18 - 01;00;11;29
So, yeah, absolutely.

01;00;11;29 - 01;00;15;29
We relish the opportunity
to work with

01;00;15;29 - 01;00;21;05
with the PIs and, and kind of harness
some of the some of their skills

01;00;21;13 - 01;00;26;14
to along with us and kind of
collectively move things forward.

01;00;27;20 - 01;00;30;00
So yeah, I'm more than happy to

01;00;30;00 - 01;00;33;08
to hear from anyone
that has as any suggestions.

01;00;34;08 - 01;00;36;15
Just one question
you actually from Rentokil I'm

01;00;36;15 - 01;00;39;17
I do he's asking about product support
and maintenance repair.

01;00;39;17 - 01;00;43;07
Can you talk based on that and
I think he means for Foster and Freeman

01;00;43;13 - 01;00;45;12
not for gel so.

01;00;45;12 - 01;00;49;07
Yeah, I can
yeah, I mean we, we support our products

01;00;50;07 - 01;00;52;05
basically, as long as long as we can.

01;00;52;05 - 01;00;55;24
I mean we're like,
like many other manufacturers, we,

01;00;56;12 - 01;00;58;10
we have a product roadmap.

01;00;58;10 - 01;01;01;14
We can, we can support products
that are out in sales

01;01;01;28 - 01;01;03;04
as long as we can get that,

01;01;03;04 - 01;01;05;28
you know, the parts that are required
and what have you.

01;01;05;28 - 01;01;08;27
But fundamentally,
I think one of the things that we're

01;01;08;27 - 01;01;11;27
well known for
is that that robustness of product

01;01;12;17 - 01;01;14;24
and also, our customer support

01;01;14;24 - 01;01;18;02
in terms of our product training
and our applications training.

01;01;18;02 - 01;01;21;05
So generally speaking,
when we when we supply a product,

01;01;21;05 - 01;01;25;04
we offer training along with that
and we will have one of our applications

01;01;25;04 - 01;01;28;06
specialists who are, as the name suggests,
they are specializing

01;01;28;14 - 01;01;30;04
in that particular product application.

01;01;30;04 - 01;01;34;15
They will travel out to customer sites
and do one on one training group training.

01;01;34;15 - 01;01;35;25
We've obviously now started doing the

01;01;36;26 - 01;01;37;10
online

01;01;37;10 - 01;01;40;22
training so we can do a hybrid
kind of training program as well.

01;01;40;22 - 01;01;43;25
We're in the process
of developing new learning platforms as

01;01;45;02 - 01;01;48;01
which I think
is another really, really important tool.

01;01;48;01 - 01;01;51;21
People want to be able
to have data, information,

01;01;51;21 - 01;01;54;09
all of that sort of stuff available
when they need it

01;01;54;09 - 01;01;57;09
rather than on a schedule
that suits everyone.

01;01;57;09 - 01;01;59;24
So having an e-learning platform
is really important for us as well.

01;01;59;24 - 01;02;03;01
So that's there's a huge amount of work
that's gone into developing that.

01;02;03;01 - 01;02;06;01
So yeah, you know,

01;02;06;21 - 01;02;09;04
is, is very good I would say that.

01;02;09;04 - 01;02;14;24
But what it is, it genuinely is and yeah,
we have a distribution network now.

01;02;14;24 - 01;02;19;01
We supply products into over 140 countries
worldwide.

01;02;19;07 - 01;02;24;26
And you know, the UK is probably
about 5 to 8% of what we do

01;02;26;07 - 01;02;28;03
America, North America, Canada.

01;02;28;03 - 01;02;30;25
It's a huge market for us.

01;02;30;25 - 01;02;32;17
Yeah, we have distribution partners,

01;02;32;17 - 01;02;35;17
we have a head office in the UK.

01;02;35;22 - 01;02;40;12
We also have a facility in in Virginia,
in the United States.

01;02;40;12 - 01;02;42;20
They've been there for about 20 years now.

01;02;42;20 - 01;02;45;09
We have a new office in, say, new.

01;02;45;09 - 01;02;47;22
It's about three
or four years old in Germany.

01;02;47;22 - 01;02;52;02
We have a more recent office
that we opened in the Netherlands as well

01;02;52;02 - 01;02;53;29
so, we're starting to branch out

01;02;53;29 - 01;02;56;03
a little bit
in terms of our physical presence.

01;02;56;03 - 01;02;59;17
But we generally have a distribution
network all around the world.

01;03;00;26 - 01;03;01;26
If I want to.

01;03;01;26 - 01;03;04;01
I'm just putting up the website here.

01;03;04;01 - 01;03;06;27
But if anyone goes to Foster from Incom,

01;03;06;27 - 01;03;08;17
you'll see that
there's a contact area there.

01;03;08;17 - 01;03;09;26
So, if anyone,

01;03;09;26 - 01;03;11;25
somebody wants to get a hold of you
or something like that,

01;03;11;25 - 01;03;13;23
that's one way
I guess through the website.

01;03;13;23 - 01;03;15;04
Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

01;03;15;04 - 01;03;18;24
And also, I've got to ask you about this
before, but Roberto is also on LinkedIn.

01;03;18;24 - 01;03;20;00
He's he posts every now and then.

01;03;20;00 - 01;03;23;13
In fact, that's how I saw the paper
that that you had posted earlier.

01;03;23;21 - 01;03;26;14
So, you can always reach
out to him there as well.

01;03;27;15 - 01;03;29;18
ROMERO Look, we're getting on in time.

01;03;29;18 - 01;03;30;22
I want to say thank you so much.

01;03;30;22 - 01;03;34;01
I think it's really exciting research
embarking in these new areas.

01;03;34;01 - 01;03;35;27
And I know there's always a lot of work
to do.

01;03;35;27 - 01;03;40;05
Sometimes it's overwhelming, but hopefully
you get some help from other people.

01;03;40;07 - 01;03;41;26
These is fair to say.

01;03;41;26 - 01;03;43;08
We're never short of ideas.

01;03;43;08 - 01;03;46;19
A side scan again,
that's always a challenge.

01;03;47;08 - 01;03;47;29
Yeah, for sure.

01;03;47;29 - 01;03;48;18
It's great.

01;03;48;18 - 01;03;51;01
Eugene Honestly,
I really appreciate the opportunity talk

01;03;51;01 - 01;03;54;13
and thanks for everyone for,
for dialing in

01;03;54;13 - 01;03;58;02
and positive comments I can see
coming in in the comments section.

01;03;58;02 - 01;03;59;22
Is yeah,
definitely people from all over the place.

01;03;59;22 - 01;04;03;11
We got Romania, we've got Turkey,
we've got Argentina,

01;04;03;11 - 01;04;04;29
we've got the United States,
we got Canada.

01;04;04;29 - 01;04;07;06
So, it's going viral. You are just.

01;04;08;21 - 01;04;09;17
Hey, we're global.

01;04;09;17 - 01;04;11;12
We go global here, so it's all good.

01;04;11;12 - 01;04;13;16
Hey, listen, do me a favor.
Hang back and I'll come.

01;04;13;16 - 01;04;15;01
Come chat with you just a bit.

01;04;15;01 - 01;04;16;21
No, I was already just.

01;04;16;21 - 01;04;17;21
Yeah. Thanks, everyone.

01;04;17;21 - 01;04;20;14
I want to wish you all the best
and have a happy Thursday. Bye.