EP 90 | Steven Jameson | FBI Visual Information & Documentation

Steven Jameson is currently the Superfisory Visual Information Specialist for the Operational Project Unit, FBI, Quantico Laboratory. His duties include documenting crime scenes and preparing visual deliverables that aid in the investigations and at trial. Steve has a long career with the U.S. Navy and has had a range of duties including underwater demolition, "hard hat" diver. He also worked with the CIA, Directorate of Operations and he is presently serving as a Chieft Warrant Officer with the U.S. Navy Reserves where he is assigned to SEAL Team EIGHTEEN. Join us as we discuss some of the different technologies and challenges to documenting large scale crime scenes and how these are turned into visual graphics and virtual models for use at trial.

Originally aired on : Sep 21, 2023
 

Transcript

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Hey everybody, it's Eugene here.

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And welcome to forensics talks.

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This is episode ninety and 
September is absolutely flying by,

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and I always feel like September
is where the pedal goes to the metal,

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and things are really picking up
and moving fast.

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So anyway,
hopefully you're all doing well.

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And here we go.

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So, our guest today,
as you probably saw, is Stephen Jameson.

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Now, Steve is a native of Charleston,
South Carolina.

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He graduated from Roger Williams
University in 1999

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with a Bachelor of Science
in Industrial Technology.

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he started his career in the U.S. Navy.

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And his operational assignments
have included

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a full range of duties
in the US Naval Special Warfare community.

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He graduated basic Underwater
demolition school in September 1988

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and spent 11 years on active duty.

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During his last years on active duty,
Steve attended school at Roger Williams

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University in Bristol, Rhode Island,
and on the side became a certified

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or he became certified
as a commercial hardhat diver

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after receiving his undergrad,

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Steve entered into service
with the CIA director of operations,

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and he subsequently left the CIA after 911
and became a government contractor

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assisting the US government

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on sensitive projects and missions
for the next ten years.

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In September of 2009,
he was affiliated with the US Navy

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through the Navy Reserves
and was assigned to SEAL Team 18,

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where he presently serves
and is currently a Chief Warrant officer.

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Steve entered into duty with the FBI
under the Critical Incident

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Response Group as a crisis management
specialist and special

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mission planner for the Counter
Improvised Explosive Device Section

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National Asset Response
Unit in September of 2010.

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And after four years of training,
teaching and running exercises,

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Steve's move over to the lab division,
where he now sits as the supervisor

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over the Technical Design
and Documentation program

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under the Operational Projects Unit,
and he's the OPA operational coordinator.

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So, lots to talk about with Steve.

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Let me bring him in here.

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yeah, lots of stuff going on there.

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Steve Lots of stuff for sure.

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But hey man, thanks.
Thanks for being here.

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And yeah, I appreciate the,
you know, the opportunity to talk to you.

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And also, I want to say thank you to Tracy
for making this happen too, because

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Yeah. Awesome.

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Let's see,
we I'm just trying to think back.

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We I believe the first time
we actually met face to face,

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it would have been probably the in
was it in Atlanta at the IFC in.

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I'm not sure.

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Oh, maybe it was Nashville.

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Okay.

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I remember going
I remember going to dinner someplace

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and I remember there's a whole group of us
going to dinner,

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and I think we sat beside each other
and we chatted away for a bit.

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So maybe it was Nashville.

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Yeah. At the International Association

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of Forensic
and Security Metrology Conference.

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That's a mouthful as well. Yeah.

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So, I want
to go back and talk about some of,

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you know, the intro here
and just ask you about your background.

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And I mean, you you're from Charleston,
but you started

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your career in the US Navy.

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And so, I was just wondering, were you

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were you always sort of had the desire

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to be in the Navy, the military?

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You know, what was sort of your

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outlook when you were younger?

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Yeah, but you

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I want to ask you also about the
the Roger Williams University,

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because you became a hardhat diver
kind of on the side.

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So, what is that about?

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And I was this
is this all on the East coast

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It was like all over the place where.

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It was all East Coast.

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It was all up in the New England area.
Yeah.

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Doing ship
inspections and bridge inspections.

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But while I was doing
that, I'd always have we'd always have

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conversations, we'd have cameras on our
heads, we'd have full communications.

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But we were always having briefs
before we went in the water.

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And after we came out of the water,
if it were working on a bridge

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or if we're working on a rail system
for a dry dock system,

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we'd talk to the engineers,
the top side.

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So, for after a while, I started realizing
they really need to see

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because the water's murky
and up in the New England area.

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So even with a camera, it's hard
for them to see what we're doing.

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We do most everything by feeling.

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So, I started

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creating 3D renderings
of what I was doing underwater,

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believe it or not, by using Excel,
and I really enjoyed doing that.

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Yeah,
to create those 3D renderings in Excel.

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And my brother taught me that
because he was so smart, he was the NUC

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and how to use Photoshop and how to use
Excel to create this 3D rendering.

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So that's when I really kind of started.

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And then we got into using sonar
and other types of imaging underwater.

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So, sector scan sites,

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side sonar scanning, things like that.

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And that's
when I really piqued my interest about,

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hey, we can image things
when we can't even see them.

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So, I've got to talk to you
about some things after I had no idea.

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I didn't know that you were doing
all the side sense side scan

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sonar and stuff like that.

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I've seen some really cool stuff

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where people have found, you know,
vehicles in rivers and things like that.

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So, yeah, after talking to
you about that another time,

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what can you tell

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me about your time with the CIA?

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CIA you spent ten years there

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I mean, what can you tell me about
maybe some of your duties

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and things like that,
what you're responsible for,

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if anything, and also, I just want to ask,
like you said after 911, you left.

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And I'm just wondering if you had like
looking for other opportunities or

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what was the move like?

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Okay.

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You said like a lot of your friends,
and that was

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due to a lot of people
from the military often move over or shift

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over like CIA and do work with the CIA
and that sort of thing. Yes.

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Okay.

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So, I want to ask you about
your current roles and responsibility.

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Now. You are under the Operations Projects
Unit, so I want to ask you about that.

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So, what is the CPU
and what are some of its responsibilities?

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What is it that they do or take care of?

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Okay.

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I got a lot of questions for you
because there's a lot of stuff there.

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So first off was the CPU.

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I mean, I imagine I'm thinking back to way

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back in the day,
you know, 5060s or whatever,

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the FBI must have been creating,
you know, physical

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reconstructions of scenes or whether
it was for JFK or something like that.

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Right. So was Apu.

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Is Apu old like it's been around
a long time or is it a more recent thing?

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Yeah, I can.

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I can see the benefit of physical models,
even just, you know, some kind of device

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or whatever that gets recreated.

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And, you know, a prosecutor
has it at trial.

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He's holding it in his hands.

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You know, there's even
I have a sample back here of like a

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a person, a scan of a person's finger
with the fingerprints.

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You can see the rich details
and things like that.

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And, you know,
if you give something like that

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to somebody to hold in their hands,
just the memory,

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the retention and the learning,
I think there's it's just different.

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You know, some people,

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when they touch something, they remember
it better and just differently.

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So, I think that has a lot of benefit.

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So, your team, when

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I'm trying to I'm trying to understand
how you guys get called out,

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how your team gets called out
so, something happens

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and who makes the call to say, Hey,
we got to get somebody from Steve's team

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or multiple people from Steve's team
out on the road here?

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How does that flow work typically?

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Right?

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Right. Okay.

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And like,
the way you're like, in terms of training

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and that sort of thing,
because you guys are handling

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so many different types of potential cases
and different types of scenarios.

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Do you have people on your team
that sort of

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I'm sure they are cross-trained
on a lot of different things,

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but do you have do
they specialize as well in certain areas?

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So, some people take
the lead in certain things.

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Right, right.

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So, I guess a couple of things to mention.

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And one is that actually
your team is looking for someone.

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I was going to mention this later,
but let's bring it up.

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We're talking about training and team,

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but maybe you want to say something
about that now.

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I don't know

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there you go, folks.

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Forensics talks is now a human resource
show, too.

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There you go.

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All right. Okay.
Let's talk about scene documentation.

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We were kind of
we were kind of touching on it.

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Whatever.

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What kinds of options

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do you have in terms of technology
for mapping scenes?

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Because I know you guys

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well, I guess you can get
some of the smaller scenes,

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but I imagine when you get called,
you know,

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when it's like bullet trajectories or
something, it's not three or four shots.

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It could be 50, 60
or maybe even thousands.

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I don't know.

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No, no, no.

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I was just going to ask about the,

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you know, your choice
of how you approach the scene as well.

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So, you get an overview of what's going on.

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And I mean, I know you guys have all kinds
of different equipment at your disposal,

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so, I'm just curious about how you choose

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who is going to use what.

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I mean, do
you always use a mix of this stuff

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when you're on scene,
or do you all, you know,

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try to use all the same piece of equipment
or something like that?

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You know, how do you
how do you divide a large scene?

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Okay.

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I know for a while

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you were using the total station
for bullet trajectory documentation.

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Do you still do that or is it laser
scanners at a mix of things?

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Okay, got it.

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Let me.

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I just want to make sure

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because I got a lot of questions,
but let me move on to the multimedia

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art and design section
you mentioned before about the friends

00;29;02;24 - 00;29;07;26
forensic facial imaging and doing sketches
and things like that.

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So is there like a dedicated team
of people who are specialized in that, or

00;29;12;26 - 00;30;28;24
are you also somebody that works
on the facial imaging?

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And you said that,

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you know, for example,
if you do find like a skull or something

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like that, you'll scan it, you'll produce
like a 3D model

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of a 3D print of it,
and then people will, will work on it.

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Right?

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So, you obviously
you must have a fantastic facility

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for like 3D printing
and that sort of thing.

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You have you have a lot of different
types of machines at your disposal.

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the you

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mentioned the like showing people
like their village and, you know,

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if it was in Rwanda
or something like that.

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So, you get terrain and you put you
you dress it up

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with like little trees
and stuff like that.

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Do you do things
like reconstruct models of weapons or,

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you know, improvised devices
and things like this?

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That's interesting.

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So, you'll actually run tests
so, you'll like the derailment

00;34;19;27 - 00;34;20;08
or whatever.

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You'll actually try to recreate

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or try to create something like that too,
which is kind of interesting.

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It's not just a demonstrative.

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It's actually
you're running some testing as well.

00;35;05;27 - 00;35;06;20
I want to ask you

00;35;06;20 - 00;35;12;22
about photography and the importance
of photography in your group, because you

00;35;12;22 - 00;35;17;07
know, people are still taking photographs
and I mean, photographs are on drones.

00;35;17;07 - 00;35;21;10
Photographs can be used
for reconstructing things with,

00;35;21;12 - 00;35;24;25
you know, photogrammetry packages
and things like that. So

00;35;24;27 - 00;35;25;15
what can you tell me

00;35;25;15 - 00;35;28;15
about the group
that handles the photography,

00;35;28;15 - 00;36;53;08
what you're doing with photography
and what the program is like there.

00;36;53;11 - 00;36;55;15
Yeah, you said the old DSLR.

00;36;55;15 - 00;36;57;28
It's like,
Oh my God, dinosaurs are old already.

00;36;57;28 - 00;36;59;15
And you're right, you're right.

00;36;59;15 - 00;37;02;13
Mirrorless
coming out all these 360 cameras.

00;37;02;13 - 00;37;04;17
There's so much more to photography

00;37;04;17 - 00;37;09;14
and I've seen some presentations
actually, from people at the FBI.

00;37;09;16 - 00;37;14;08
Tony who did
I think it was the Aurora theater shooting

00;37;14;10 - 00;37;17;06
and he showed me some amazing images of,
you know,

00;37;17;06 - 00;37;20;13
these bullet trajectories
and how he was able to capture them.

00;37;20;15 - 00;37;22;27
So, I thought it was like super
some really very

00;37;22;27 - 00;37;25;26
professional work and documentation. So.

00;37;26;03 - 00;38;14;27
So, you're working alongside these people
sometimes, right?

00;38;14;29 - 00;38;15;13
How has

00;38;15;13 - 00;38;20;19
how has technology impacted your group
over the time that you've been there?

00;38;20;19 - 00;38;24;16
I mean, has it
you know, the last you know, well,

00;38;24;20 - 00;38;25;25
I guess it would have been
When did you start?

00;38;25;25 - 00;38;28;25
2014. Ten, 14.

00;38;29;02 - 00;38;31;03
Thought you were getting off the. Yeah.

00;38;31;03 - 00;38;32;29
And so, there's, you know,
almost ten years.

00;38;32;29 - 00;38;35;29
And so, I mean, have seen a big shift
in the technology.

00;38;35;29 - 00;38;38;29
Do you feel like it's more rapid
now than it was before?

00;38;39;05 - 00;40;58;15
What are your thoughts on that?

00;40;58;17 - 00;40;59;07
So is your

00;40;59;07 - 00;41;03;09
team also responsible for like researching
new technologies, testing

00;41;03;09 - 00;41;06;18
new technologies,
putting them into, you know, validation

00;41;06;18 - 00;41;48;06
studies as well?

00;41;48;08 - 00;41;49;27
I wanted to ask you about,

00;41;49;27 - 00;41;52;19
you know, managing cases
and working on these cases,

00;41;52;19 - 00;41;57;15
because some of them are fairly large,
some of them are

00;41;57;18 - 00;41;58;17
tragic. Right.

00;41;58;17 - 00;42;01;28
There's a lot of, you know, loss of life
and things like that.

00;42;02;01 - 00;42;06;05
And so, you know, obviously,
you and your team, you know, maybe

00;42;06;08 - 00;42;09;25
to certain things
that are not always the most pleasant.

00;42;09;27 - 00;42;14;05
So, and this topic has come up
a lot before, but I'm just wondering how,

00;42;14;08 - 00;42;17;12
you know, how you guys manage the stress

00;42;17;12 - 00;42;21;18
or the impact of some of these scenes and,
you know, do you

00;42;21;25 - 00;42;26;06
is it the team itself that's,
you know, often very open and close.

00;42;26;08 - 00;42;29;08
I've seen a lot of places
where, for example, humor plays a big part

00;42;29;08 - 00;42;31;06
in, you know,
just sort of relieving some stress.

00;42;31;06 - 00;42;31;26
But, you know,

00;42;31;26 - 00;42;36;18
just that the whole stress of
of working in these kinds of conditions

00;42;36;20 - 00;44;18;13
and how you manage all of that.

00;44;18;16 - 00;44;19;25
Yeah.

00;44;19;25 - 00;44;22;20
Now, do you also do
work, for example, overseas?

00;44;22;20 - 00;44;24;14
Because there could be incidents
that happen

00;44;24;14 - 00;44;26;22
that may be related overseas
or internationally.

00;44;26;22 - 00;44;44;01
Is that something that your group
has to handle as well?

00;44;44;04 - 00;44;46;07
Yeah, some different things.

00;44;46;07 - 00;44;49;02
So, in some of the scenes

00;44;49;02 - 00;44;52;20
that you've been working, I'm curious,
but I'm being careful

00;44;52;20 - 00;44;55;23
not to ask like really specifics,
but I'd like to know what maybe

00;44;55;23 - 00;45;01;22
some of the things that you've learned
or some of the things that

00;45;01;24 - 00;45;05;17
you've seen that your work brings value,
like how your work brings value,

00;45;05;17 - 00;45;07;13
or you're always
maybe surprised about something

00;45;07;13 - 00;45;10;26
when you document that, or maybe you
you figure something out or you realize

00;45;10;26 - 00;45;14;26
something was visible
or present that it wasn't before.

00;45;14;26 - 00;45;17;05
Like, have you had
any of those moments are like then, Like,

00;45;17;05 - 00;47;33;06
that's, that's
pretty cool that we were able to do that.

00;47;33;08 - 00;47;35;29
have you guys experimented
or are you looking at implementing

00;47;35;29 - 00;47;39;25
or maybe you already have, but
you know, the whole virtual reality thing,

00;47;39;25 - 00;47;43;10
I mean, is it a tool
that is currently in use?

00;47;43;10 - 00;47;46;27
Is there still some resistance to it
or is it no horses

00;47;46;27 - 00;48;54;09
out of the barn?

00;48;54;11 - 00;48;55;03
Yeah, for sure.

00;48;55;03 - 00;48;58;17
There’re still some challenges
there, especially with four

00;48;58;19 - 00;48;59;22
six degrees of freedom.

00;48;59;22 - 00;49;01;25
Virtual reality in a jury.

00;49;01;25 - 00;49;04;19
I can see all kinds of issues
actually, happening there.

00;49;04;19 - 00;49;07;12
But yeah, it's
but it's it is an interesting approach,

00;49;07;12 - 00;49;10;01
especially for like witness perspectives
and things like that.

00;49;10;01 - 00;49;14;05
The things that virtual reality can do
really well.

00;49;14;07 - 00;49;14;12
Yeah.

00;49;14;12 - 00;49;19;04
So hopefully we'll see some more of that
coming in the future.

00;49;19;06 - 00;49;21;05
One thing I saw when we

00;49;21;05 - 00;49;23;20
well, actually last time
we saw each other was in North Carolina,

00;49;23;20 - 00;49;28;26
but so, it was at the Acer conference
and it was interesting.

00;49;28;26 - 00;49;34;07
It's the first time I saw the FBI
giving out brochures and one of these

00;49;34;09 - 00;49;36;28
it was it for was it for hiring purposes?

00;49;36;28 - 00;49;42;07
But it was because you were trying to show
what it was that your team was doing

00;49;42;09 - 00;49;44;28
and the fact that your team

00;49;44;28 - 00;49;48;09
is available to other police agencies
when they need help and.

00;49;48;09 - 00;51;18;16
I thought you may want to talk about that.

00;51;18;18 - 00;51;20;08
Yeah, I was I was just

00;51;20;08 - 00;51;24;05
going to say I said the big
the big F word, it's free, right?

00;51;24;05 - 00;51;27;15
So, you know, there's several people
I know on here

00;51;27;15 - 00;51;31;20
that are from different police agencies
and you know, if you ever need help,

00;51;31;22 - 00;51;34;27
I think this is an incredible service
that you can call and get some assistance.

00;51;34;27 - 00;51;36;26
You know,
especially if you're a smaller agency

00;51;36;26 - 00;51;41;23
and you don't have all the resources
that, you know, Steve C team has.

00;51;42;01 - 00;51;43;28
So that's pretty awesome.

00;51;43;28 - 00;51;46;02
So, Steve,
so, what is next for you in the team?

00;51;46;02 - 00;51;46;10
Like?

00;51;46;10 - 00;51;49;09
Are you looking
to get into different areas?

00;51;49;09 - 00;51;53;15
Are you looking to do different things
in the in the near future?

00;51;53;15 - 00;51;54;01
You know what

00;51;54;01 - 00;51;56;26
what's what kinds of things
can you talk about with your team

00;51;56;26 - 00;54;59;02
and where you're headed
and where you're going?

00;54;59;05 - 00;55;01;06
yeah, how do you mentioned, you know,

00;55;01;06 - 00;55;04;17
testifying at trial and that's obviously
has to be part of your role, right?

00;55;04;17 - 00;55;54;29
Yeah, you got to get
you have to authenticate your work.

00;55;55;02 - 00;55;55;07
Yeah.

00;55;55;07 - 00;55;55;20
Sorry.

00;55;55;20 - 00;55;58;13
There's a question here from somebody,
and I won't bring it up

00;55;58;13 - 00;56;00;16
and I'll basically ask it,
But it has to do with, you know,

00;56;00;16 - 00;56;03;21
3-D replicas and 3D prints
and things like this.

00;56;03;27 - 00;56;06;21
And how do you how do you authenticate
something like that in court?

00;56;06;21 - 00;56;08;19
Have you had to authenticate, you know,

00;56;08;19 - 00;56;12;23
the model is accurate to a certain scale
or a smaller scale?

00;56;12;23 - 00;56;15;10
It's an accurate replica.

00;56;15;10 - 00;56;48;00
How do you typically explain
that at trial?

00;56;48;03 - 00;56;48;10
right?

00;56;48;10 - 00;56;50;06
Right. Yeah. And I get it.

00;56;50;06 - 00;56;52;18
Well, look, Steve,
we're going to get we're getting on here.

00;56;52;18 - 00;56;55;07
And again, I want to thank you very much.

00;56;55;07 - 00;56;57;27
If somebody wants to reach out
or somebody,

00;56;57;27 - 00;57;00;18
maybe he's interested in the position
or maybe somebody is interested

00;57;00;18 - 00;57;03;01
in, you know, they're like,
Hey, I'm calling Steve's team up

00;57;03;01 - 00;57;06;24
because I got some work for them,
you know, local PD or something.

00;57;06;26 - 00;57;21;00
What Is the best place to reach you at

00;57;21;03 - 00;57;22;05
Okay so if they

00;57;22;05 - 00;57;22;25
have an inquiry

00;57;22;25 - 00;57;25;23
or they want to submit a CV or something
like that, they can get a hold

00;57;25;23 - 00;57;28;19
you and I think you're on. Are you on
are you on LinkedIn as well?

00;57;28;19 - 00;57;30;29
I thought you were on LinkedIn.
I am. I am. I am on LinkedIn.

00;57;30;29 - 00;57;33;11
You okay so people can get a hold you
there as well.

00;57;33;11 - 00;57;37;27
Excellent.

00;57;38;00 - 00;57;38;21
Yeah, yeah.

00;57;38;21 - 00;57;41;03
It might be cryptic,
but you'll find them, right? Right.

00;57;41;03 - 00;57;42;00
So right on.

00;57;42;00 - 00;57;44;22
Well, listen, Steve, thank you so much.

00;57;44;22 - 00;57;46;02
Thank you to Erin.

00;57;46;02 - 00;57;46;26
Thanks to the team.

00;57;46;26 - 00;57;48;00
I wish you guys all the best.

00;57;48;00 - 00;57;50;14
I hope to see you sometime soon as well.

00;57;50;14 - 00;57;52;04
But I appreciate you being here today.

00;57;52;04 - 00;57;55;15
And yeah, like I said, we'll be in touch.

00;57;55;18 - 00;57;57;20
All right.
Thank you, Jane. I appreciate it.

00;57;57;20 - 00;57;58;26
All right. Cheers.

00;57;58;26 - 00;58;00;17
Okay, folks, that does it for this one.

00;58;00;17 - 00;58;01;15
Another forensics talks.

00;58;01;15 - 00;58;05;00
Some interesting work there
done by the FBI and their team

00;58;05;00 - 00;58;08;02
using a whole bunch of different
technologies and really cool stuff.

00;58;08;02 - 00;58;10;21
So, we are going to be back next week.

00;58;10;21 - 00;58;11;18
So, make sure you're here.

00;58;11;18 - 00;58;14;23
I'll be announcing that probably tomorrow
or putting something online.

00;58;14;23 - 00;58;16;12
So, you'll see

00;58;16;12 - 00;58;20;07
we'll be talking about gait analysis,
something I haven't discussed as well.

00;58;20;07 - 00;58;22;29
So, hey everybody, have a happy
Thursday. See you soon.

00;58;22;29 - 00;58;23;09
Bye bye.