Forensics Talks
Forensics Talks is a series of interviews with Forensic Professionals from different disciplines around the globe. Learn about science, technology and important cases where Forensic Science has played an important role.
Forensics Talks
EP 91 | Nicholas Harris | Gait Analysis
Nick Harris obtained a BSc Hons Degree in Podiatric Medicine in 1995 from Salford University after which he worked in private practice as a Podiatrist until 2002. He then emigrated to Canada and in 2003, joined the Peel Regional Police. In 2016, Nick joined the Forensic Identification services with Peel Regional Police and soon found that his previous profession and education had applications in the forensic world as it pertained to criminal investigations. Nick has advanced training in footwear impression examination, is a qualified barefoot morphologist, and has been deemed an expert witness within the Canadian court system. He is now the only certified forensic gait analyst currently known to be in Canada. Join us as we discuss how gait analysis contributes to forensic investigations.
Originally aired on: Sep 28, 2023
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Hello, everyone.
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Happy Thursday and welcome
to another episode of Forensics Talks.
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This is going to be episode 91 and today
my guest is Nicholas Harris.
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Now, this is the getting into the nineties
here on the episodes
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and I just wanted to say that we're going
to be creeping up to the 100th episode
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sometime soon.
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And I've been thinking about trying
to do something special for that one.
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And so, I've got some ideas about maybe
like looking back at some best clips
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or some interviews
or maybe bringing some different people on
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for that hundredth episode.
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But I'm open to some ideas.
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So, if any of you have
any thoughts on that,
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I would really welcome you
to give your opinion on what you think
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you want to see on the 100th episode
as its just around the corner.
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So, let's get on with it here
and we'll get started.
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So, my guest today is Nicholas Harris,
and he was born and educated in England.
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He obtained a Bachelor of Science honors
degree in Pediatric
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medicine in 1995 from Salford University.
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Nick worked in private practice
as a podiatrist until 2002,
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and at that time, he emigrated to Canada
and a change of profession saw him
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join the ranks of policing with the Peel
Regional Police in 2003 and 2006.
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Nick joined the forensic Identification
Services with Peel Regional Police
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and he soon found that his previous
profession and education had applications
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in the forensic world
as it pertains to criminal investigations.
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Now, Nick has advanced training
in footwear impression examination.
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He's a qualified barefoot mythologist
and he's been deemed an expert witness
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in this field of study
within the Canadian court system.
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In fact, he's
now the only certified forensic analyst
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currently to be in Canada.
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He has been consulted as a forensic gate
analyst in over
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two dozen cases from multiple police
agencies throughout Canada.
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And he's actively involved in research
to help advance the field of forensic
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gait analysis.
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Now, this is a topic that I haven't
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approached before,
we haven't talked about, but I saw Nick's
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presentation at the Ontario Forensic Video
Analyst Association just this past year.
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I think it was in May.
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Maybe he'll correct me if I'm wrong,
but I thought it was really interesting.
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It was something that
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I'm not really exposed to a lot and
there are not a lot of people doing this.
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So, I think it's a great opportunity
to have him in here and let me bring
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him in right here.
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There it is.
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Hey, Nick, Correa and Eugene,
thanks for the intro.
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Well,
thank you so much for joining me.
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Yeah.
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Gate analysis is not something
that I can find a lot of people doing.
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Right. So, it's not a very common practice
just yet.
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Maybe
there'll be more people in the future.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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No, it's relatively new
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to a lot of people,
but it has been around for a while.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Let me ask you,
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I always start with the speakers
like background and stuff like that,
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cause
I'm always curious about, like, people's
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pathway, you know, and sort of journey
to where they currently are.
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So, university.
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So, before university you're looking
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were you already planning
on being a podiatrist?
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Ah, it's quite a story because
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as a kid
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growing up, I'm very sporty and, you know,
that's all I wanted to do.
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So, you know, you get to the age of
what is it you want to do?
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And I had no idea.
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My grandfather
was a professional soccer player
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and when he retired and forties,
the end of the forties,
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he went into physiotherapy
and chiropody podiatry.
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And then my father,
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he also went into podiatry.
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So, me, the eldest son, you know, go,
you know, what else can I do?
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And so, I went and podiatry,
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you know, watching my father practice,
it was all about pathologies at the feet,
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in the legs, you know, fixing people's
ingrown toenail and ruckus
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and all that lovely stuff.
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But when I got to university and realized
it was a lot more involved,
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and especially when the biomechanical
aspect came into it,
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my sporting
background, that really took off
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because I was quite
a, quite a decent cricket player.
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But then I had two knee injuries,
but both my,
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both my knees just for whatever reason,
there was no sudden dramatic injury.
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They just started to fail.
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And so, my cricket career was kind of
put on hold and off I went to university.
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But it was while I was there
that one of the instructors took me aside
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and did a biomechanical assessment on me
and found out that my feet were flat,
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really promoted a lot,
and that caused the misalignment.
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Further up my leg,
causing my knees to be painful.
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And he gave me orthotics
and the change was incredible.
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I became a fast runner,
stronger runner, was able to bowl
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faster than my cricket
and just improved on my sport overall.
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So, experiencing
that firsthand really gripped me.
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So, I was able to sort of
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take that into other realms
and I was finding ice hockey players.
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Skiers were all benefiting from orthotics
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in addressing biomechanical issues
that they had.
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So, taking that from university,
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once I
finished, I got into private practice.
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I then started working at the football
club, Soccer club.
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My grandfather played ball,
so, I was the podiatrist for the team
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and I was able to use the biomechanical
aspect to my career in private practice
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and then finally met my wife
and we came to Canada.
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He had Canadian citizenship, so,
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you know, I won't get into the whys
and what's the why
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Canada and my intention
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was to continue with podiatry,
but things didn't quite work out.
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The system is a little bit different here.
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It was in the UK and me
starting again in private practice
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in Canada with, you know, no money
and you're not able to get any finance
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or anything.
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It was going to be impossible
because I had to go back to England or
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make a change.
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And just so happened around that time.
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My wife's father, he used to work
for the Peel Regional Police.
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He came over to visit
and we went out one day
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and he introduced me to some of his
old colleagues who still work repeal
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one thing led to another, and I ended up
joining the police service 20 years later.
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And here I am.
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Yeah, it was.
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Yeah, I was just going to say
it's 20, 20 years now, 2023.
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So, I'm just curious though.
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So, when you did come to Canada,
it was probably I have a feeling
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that I know this happens
to a like other medical professionals,
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but they pretty much
have you start almost over again, right?
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You make re-education
and all that other stuff.
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So, it's a big it's a big investment
in time and effort and money.
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It was that part of the issue.
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Yeah, that was that was in part of it.
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There was a re qualification examination
that you go through.
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But in the UK, the National Health
Service, you can work as a podiatrist.
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But over here,
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the OC on the Health system,
they didn't have that.
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So was having to go into private practice
and you know,
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maybe I could have done my research
a little bit better.
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But it is what it is
and I have absolutely no regrets
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because it's led me to where I am today
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as a podiatrist.
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When you're working on people.
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And I think a lot of
I have a feeling that a lot of people
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that get into biomechanics
and all these kinds of things,
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a lot of them I think, are passionate
about sports and helping sports
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players get better, recover
and that sort of thing.
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But what is sort of the extent or scope of
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the parts of the body that you work on
and you specialize on?
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Because it's not just it's
not just the feet.
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There are other parts to the body
that affect, you know,
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how you're walking
and your gait and all that stuff. So
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how would you.
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Yeah,
like how would you describe the scope
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of what you do as a podiatrist to others?
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Yeah, well,
it depends on the issue you're having and
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it depends on what you're doing as well,
because you can be looking at it
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that somebody comes to you with
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pain.
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They have an injury.
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And why is that happening?
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Like in my case, with my knees,
it was because
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my feet were overly fragmented
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that was causing the lower leg
to rotate and works
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and that causes the knee to the track
out of place slightly.
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So, the kneecap was actually rubbing on the
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causing me in the men's pain.
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So, by supporting the arches of my feet,
straightened up limbs.
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So, we walk around, we walk on our feet,
we don't walk on our hands.
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So, everything comes from the feet, a body.
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So, somebody has hip problems, back
problems, neck problems, even shoulder
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problems.
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It could potentially
stem from the feet may not,
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but it's something that you would look at.
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So that's one aspect.
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You know, somebody who has pain,
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but then there's another aspect
where you can look at sports
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in general, people
who are trying to improve what they do.
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Now, when I was coming through university,
there was research with
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I can't remember a name,
but there was a well-known long jumper
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at the time
and they had her in the clinical setting.
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They were putting markers on the joints
to the body,
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video recording,
putting it through computer systems
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and was saying, if you do this, this
and this, you'll break the world record.
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Right?
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So, the mechanical systems,
the program was able to figure out that by
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doing this mechanically
and by helping them
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with those mechanics,
you can improve your sports performance.
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Doing it in
real life is completely different.
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It's a different animal
altogether, but in theory it's there. So,
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you know,
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biomechanics, it's the whole body
essentially, right?
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So, it's optimizing the person's
mechanics, their body for what they have
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and getting the most out of their system,
let's say.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, I mentioned ice hockey players.
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I had an ice hockey player back in the UK
when he was turning.
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He was losing the edge of the skate
and we looked at it
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and he also had a flat foot
and just on the one side.
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And so, we did in some orthotics
and he actually,
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you know, became a much
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more efficient skater because he was now
getting that cutting edge on the blade
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and wasn't sliding out.
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And that was a mechanical issue.
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We had not helped him.
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So, you know, things like that
marathon runners, I did a lot of those.
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The times would come down because
they were more mechanically efficient.
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So yeah, it was interesting.
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Realm Yeah.
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When you decided to move
into forensic identification.
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So that was 2006, I believe.
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Did you already have it in mind
that, hey,
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I want to get back into this or I want to,
you know, I want to use this?
00;11;28;21 - 00;11;31;22
Or did you just when you got in,
did you see an opportunity and say, hey,
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you know what, this is an area
I think I can use my current skills with.
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We're thinking about it beforehand.
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No, no.
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So, I was always been fascinated
by the whole forensic world, and that's
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where I always wanted to be in policing
and just loved everything about it.
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It wasn't until I got into the forensic
area that I sort of thought, hang on,
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my old profession
may have some application in here.
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And it didn't happen straightaway.
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It was a few years after I started
and then I kind of realized.
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So, I mean, footwear analysis,
you you're looking at footprints
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and shoes matching those.
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You know, that's
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not something
that podiatrists can solely do.
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You know,
anybody can do that in the forensic world.
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Barefoot morphology again
with matching shapes.
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So, anybody with a good eye,
I mean even fingerprinting
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people have a good eye for that
barefoot morphology.
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It's not something specifically that,
you know, the podiatrist can do.
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But when it came to Gates analysis
and I started reading about it
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and see that there were podiatrists
00;12;40;05 - 00;12;43;11
who were looking at it,
and I realized, well, my
00;12;43;13 - 00;12;46;00
understanding of biomechanics
00;12;46;00 - 00;12;49;22
may be applicable here,
00;12;49;25 - 00;12;53;21
but even still in forensic gates
analysis, it's
00;12;53;21 - 00;12;58;02
not something
can only be done by the podiatrist at all.
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It just helps that you have
that background
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in forensic identification.
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And I don't know how it works
exactly appeal, but I know in many places
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you sort of a generalist,
you learn a lot of different things.
00;13;11;11 - 00;13;13;28
But do they allow you to go in
like our most people do?
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They sort of have
maybe somebody gets into fingerprints,
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maybe somebody gets more into,
I don't know, bullet trajectories.
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You know, you're getting into gait
analysis.
00;13;21;20 - 00;13;24;20
Did each one of you sort of have an area
you were more interested in or
00;13;24;28 - 00;13;26;28
you specialized in?
00;13;27;01 - 00;13;29;18
Well, I'm fortunate because it peels
00;13;29;18 - 00;13;31;28
they you know, they look at people
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who want to specialize
and they will support you in that.
00;13;36;07 - 00;13;40;07
There are areas in forensic
which when we go through
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our basic forensic training,
00;13;43;04 - 00;13;47;17
we're learning photography,
fingerprinting, footwear impressions.
00;13;47;19 - 00;13;51;14
We do sort of like a basic in blood
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pattern analysis,
but that's a specialized area.
00;13;55;08 - 00;13;59;21
So, people who have an interest
in certain areas, they may specialize.
00;13;59;23 - 00;14;01;03
Okay.
00;14;01;03 - 00;14;03;07
When you were starting to move
00;14;03;07 - 00;14;07;01
into the whole Gates analysis realm,
00;14;07;04 - 00;14;09;23
what kind of resources were available
to you
00;14;09;23 - 00;14;13;23
like for training
and to get certified and,
00;14;13;25 - 00;14;16;23
you know, all the things that are required
in order to make you an expert?
00;14;16;23 - 00;14;19;24
Like were they fairly well
and readily available
00;14;19;24 - 00;14;23;19
or was it still something
that's still being developed in 2016?
00;14;23;22 - 00;14;25;21
Well, not in Canada.
00;14;25;23 - 00;14;29;22
So, trends and gait analysis were being done
in the UK
00;14;29;28 - 00;14;34;01
a lot and in the US was being done
00;14;34;04 - 00;14;38;07
and it was in the UK
that they found the people
00;14;38;07 - 00;14;42;21
who were really sort of pioneering it
and pushing it,
00;14;42;24 - 00;14;46;21
and it was at the IEEE
that they were running.
00;14;46;24 - 00;14;50;04
Gates Analysis
00;14;50;07 - 00;14;51;15
workshops
00;14;51;15 - 00;14;54;08
and lectures, and I attended those.
00;14;54;08 - 00;14;57;05
I'm like, okay, well this is something
that maybe I can do.
00;14;57;05 - 00;15;01;19
So, two years running, I went to the
I the first chair was sort of,
00;15;01;21 - 00;15;04;05
Okay, what's this all about?
This one a bit more about it.
00;15;04;05 - 00;15;09;05
And then the following year I actually did
a certification in Gates analysis.
00;15;09;08 - 00;15;11;23
So yeah, I had to kind of go
00;15;11;23 - 00;15;16;11
looking for it to see where it was,
where the research was being done.
00;15;16;14 - 00;15;18;24
Yeah, because, you know, it's
00;15;18;24 - 00;15;21;25
now becoming more of an established craft,
00;15;22;03 - 00;15;24;29
as it were, in forensics.
00;15;24;29 - 00;15;29;10
So, in the UK and in particular,
it's really been strongly hacking that.
00;15;29;13 - 00;15;32;26
So would you say that UK
is sort of like the, the leading country
00;15;32;26 - 00;15;34;28
with experts in that, in that area?
00;15;34;28 - 00;15;38;08
They they're doing a very,
very good job. Yes.
00;15;38;11 - 00;15;39;25
Okay.
00;15;39;25 - 00;15;42;23
So, let's talk about gait analysis.
00;15;42;23 - 00;15;45;23
And if you I'm sure
that when you go to trial,
00;15;45;23 - 00;15;48;29
people are going to ask you, you know,
the lawyers ask you, so, you know,
00;15;49;01 - 00;15;51;26
Officer Harris,
so, tell me about gait analysis.
00;15;51;26 - 00;15;52;14
What can you tell me?
00;15;52;14 - 00;15;54;15
So, I'll ask you the same sort of question.
00;15;54;15 - 00;16;00;03
And, you know, how do you typically describe it to the jury or the judge at trial?
00;16;00;06 - 00;16;01;03
Yeah, well, well,
00;16;01;03 - 00;16;04;09
Gates is essentially the way that we walk.
00;16;04;09 - 00;16;05;25
We stand, we run.
00;16;05;25 - 00;16;09;19
So, Gates analysis is the analysis of that.
00;16;09;20 - 00;16;13;11
It's the analysis of the locomotion
of our body in motion.
00;16;13;14 - 00;16;19;09
So, the forensic gates analysis
is that applied in the criminal setting.
00;16;19;11 - 00;16;19;19
All right.
00;16;19;19 - 00;16;23;19
When it comes to criminal investigations
or the legal system.
00;16;23;21 - 00;16;26;26
So, you know, we look at,
you know, the way the body works,
00;16;26;26 - 00;16;30;29
but we're looking at primarily
CCTV footage.
00;16;31;02 - 00;16;34;15
So, what's happening is a crime,
00;16;34;18 - 00;16;37;25
let's say, has happened
and it's been caught on camera.
00;16;37;25 - 00;16;42;05
And the investigators,
they have a suspect in mind.
00;16;42;07 - 00;16;44;11
Now, forensic Gates analysis.
00;16;44;11 - 00;16;48;16
It's important to know
that it's not an identification tool.
00;16;48;19 - 00;16;51;18
It is primarily an investigative aid.
00;16;51;22 - 00;16;57;00
So, all pretty much your investigations
start with your eyewitness testimony.
00;16;57;00 - 00;17;00;24
If people that they've witness something,
00;17;00;26 - 00;17;01;19
forensic Gates
00;17;01;19 - 00;17;06;00
analysis will take the video
that would have been taken from the scene.
00;17;06;02 - 00;17;09;29
And we're looking at a subject
and we're seeing if that can be used.
00;17;09;29 - 00;17;14;17
If I can see this person walking
and if I can start to identify
00;17;14;17 - 00;17;17;26
sort of individual
aspects of that person's gait.
00;17;17;28 - 00;17;21;09
And I'm looking not just the feet,
the legs, we're going from head
00;17;21;11 - 00;17;24;08
to toe, the whole body,
the way the arms move,
00;17;24;08 - 00;17;27;19
the shoulders, the hips
all the way down to the feet.
00;17;27;21 - 00;17;28;06
Okay.
00;17;28;06 - 00;17;33;06
What are some of the earliest references
to gait analysis are either,
00;17;33;08 - 00;17;38;15
yeah, in in practice
or sort of historically,
00;17;38;17 - 00;17;41;01
you know,
where is it first been referenced
00;17;41;01 - 00;17;45;05
so, you can actually find way back?
00;17;45;07 - 00;17;46;20
Aristotle.
00;17;46;20 - 00;17;51;25
So, we're looking at like 300
B.C., something like that.
00;17;51;28 - 00;17;53;16
And what he found
00;17;53;16 - 00;17;57;08
was he had a read dipped in ink
00;17;57;10 - 00;18;01;19
and attach it to somebody's head
and then the lead would drag along a wall.
00;18;01;21 - 00;18;06;01
And then as that person walked, he could
see the three was going up and down.
00;18;06;03 - 00;18;09;21
So, you know, that's one of the earlier
sort of
00;18;09;23 - 00;18;14;13
the acknowledgment of simple gait
that somebody, when they're walking
00;18;14;13 - 00;18;17;13
something is happening,
that they seeing something happen.
00;18;17;17 - 00;18;20;17
Now, you can also look at
00;18;20;19 - 00;18;23;06
William Shakespeare,
00;18;23;06 - 00;18;25;18
you know, one of his plays, The Tempest.
00;18;25;18 - 00;18;29;22
So, I think we're talking 1610.
00;18;29;22 - 00;18;34;03
I believe that was so in there
in that play.
00;18;34;06 - 00;18;35;26
One of the goddesses,
00;18;35;26 - 00;18;39;25
Sarah, I think it was she's
waiting for somebody to come along.
00;18;39;27 - 00;18;44;22
And I believe it's Juno,
the goddess of marriage.
00;18;44;22 - 00;18;46;22
I believe it is.
00;18;46;24 - 00;18;49;06
And Sarah says, oh, here she comes.
00;18;49;06 - 00;18;51;04
I know her by her gates.
00;18;51;04 - 00;18;54;01
So, Shakespeare was referencing gate.
00;18;54;01 - 00;18;58;18
So, it was known back then
that, you know, people walk and maybe
00;18;58;18 - 00;19;02;12
there's something individualistic
about the way that that person walks.
00;19;02;15 - 00;19;07;14
So, you can go back quite a long way
and see the things have been written
00;19;07;16 - 00;19;10;08
in history referencing gate
00;19;10;08 - 00;19;13;08
and pretty amazing And
00;19;13;10 - 00;19;15;19
when it comes to the practice
00;19;15;19 - 00;19;19;10
and the approach that you take,
00;19;19;12 - 00;19;21;24
well, I guess to start off with
00;19;21;24 - 00;19;26;09
the real way that you work doing it
analysis has to be from video.
00;19;26;09 - 00;19;29;04
I mean, I don't know how else you do it
other than unless you're present
00;19;29;04 - 00;19;31;11
looking at a suspect walking
or something like that.
00;19;31;11 - 00;19;34;02
But so, you're working a lot with video.
00;19;34;05 - 00;19;34;19
Yeah.
00;19;34;19 - 00;19;36;17
Yeah, all the time.
00;19;36;17 - 00;19;37;11
You know that.
00;19;37;11 - 00;19;40;22
That's really
the only way to do it at this time.
00;19;40;24 - 00;19;43;14
And I mean, in a clinical setting,
you know,
00;19;43;14 - 00;19;47;23
we can record somebody
to the smallest degree of measurement.
00;19;47;26 - 00;19;50;18
But on CCTV,
00;19;50;18 - 00;19;55;04
you know, we're looking at the person
who is being advised me
00;19;55;06 - 00;19;57;26
this is a person of interest
and I'm looking at them
00;19;57;26 - 00;20;01;09
and I'm seeing what can I do
an analysis of this person's gait.
00;20;01;11 - 00;20;03;15
And that will depend
on the quality of the footage
00;20;03;15 - 00;20;06;15
and how much footage there
is, is a lot of things that go into that.
00;20;06;19 - 00;20;09;18
But yeah, it's all from CCTV.
00;20;09;25 - 00;20;10;13
Okay.
00;20;10;13 - 00;20;14;03
And I remember in your presentation
you were talking about that,
00;20;14;03 - 00;20;16;17
you know, you sort of you have well,
there are a few things.
00;20;16;17 - 00;20;20;14
There is a, a code
of conduct that you work to,
00;20;20;17 - 00;20;22;11
you know, for, for gait analysis.
00;20;22;11 - 00;20;27;10
And there's also a tool, there's tools
that use sort of like a checklist of items
00;20;27;10 - 00;20;31;00
that you adhere to as a sort of protocol
when you're doing your analysis.
00;20;31;06 - 00;20;35;08
And if you don't mind, if I could maybe
bring some of that up, maybe you can.
00;20;35;11 - 00;20;38;03
I can show people what this is
and you can describe it for the people
00;20;38;03 - 00;20;41;03
who are going to be listening
to this later.
00;20;41;06 - 00;20;41;19
Yeah.
00;20;41;19 - 00;20;46;09
So that's the tool that I use
when I get my video footage.
00;20;46;09 - 00;20;48;04
It helps me
00;20;48;04 - 00;20;51;04
as a guideline to
00;20;51;04 - 00;20;55;10
assess the video, whether the video's
going to be a suitable quality to use.
00;20;55;12 - 00;21;00;16
So, I'm looking at the clarity,
the contrast,
00;21;00;18 - 00;21;05;01
you know, is the image clearly visible?
00;21;05;03 - 00;21;07;00
You know, we're looking at lighting.
00;21;07;00 - 00;21;08;01
How good is the lighting?
00;21;08;01 - 00;21;09;22
What's the angle that I'm looking at?
00;21;09;22 - 00;21;11;04
The person from?
00;21;11;04 - 00;21;15;22
So, by looking at that chart, I can see
00;21;15;24 - 00;21;18;16
what sort of things
are going to be available to me to use.
00;21;18;16 - 00;21;23;04
Now the further right
that I go in the checkbox
00;21;23;06 - 00;21;26;03
on that chart, then it's not going to be
00;21;26;03 - 00;21;29;09
as good to be used in aggregate analysis.
00;21;29;09 - 00;21;32;10
The more to the left
as I'm starting to find the checkboxes
00;21;32;10 - 00;21;35;16
or checked off that the better quality
it's going to be.
00;21;35;18 - 00;21;38;07
So, it's good for disclosure as well.
00;21;38;07 - 00;21;42;20
So, when I get video footage the
if the investigator they're
00;21;42;20 - 00;21;46;10
seeing something and I send it to them
say, look, this is not good enough.
00;21;46;13 - 00;21;49;12
And, you know, we end up with a bit
of a discussion about it
00;21;49;12 - 00;21;53;19
and then I can give them this and say,
look, this is why this is what I'm seeing.
00;21;53;19 - 00;21;56;19
So okay, so this is this is it.
00;21;56;19 - 00;22;00;04
This is a tool that really assesses
the quality of the video
00;22;00;04 - 00;22;02;15
that you're being handed
and maybe how appropriate
00;22;02;15 - 00;22;06;05
it would be or,
you know, for use in in in an analysis.
00;22;06;07 - 00;22;06;23
Yeah.
00;22;06;23 - 00;22;09;18
At the end of the day, I need to be able
to see what I'm looking at.
00;22;09;18 - 00;22;10;15
Right, right.
00;22;10;15 - 00;22;10;20
Yeah.
00;22;10;20 - 00;22;14;02
If I can't do that, then
there's no point in going any further.
00;22;14;02 - 00;22;18;02
So, you know,
this can sort of end the lengthy process
00;22;18;04 - 00;22;19;02
early rather
00;22;19;02 - 00;22;22;06
than me spending a lot of hours
working through an analysis
00;22;22;06 - 00;22;26;08
when I know that it's just not going to be
any good at the end of the day.
00;22;26;11 - 00;22;28;02
Is this form something that you've created
00;22;28;02 - 00;22;31;16
or is it something fairly standard
that most people use?
00;22;31;18 - 00;22;35;23
The was the version,
but I created this based on the version
00;22;35;23 - 00;22;36;23
that other people use.
00;22;36;23 - 00;22;39;16
I just find it works for me.
00;22;39;16 - 00;22;41;10
Okay, let me let me move forward here.
00;22;41;10 - 00;22;43;25
I want to get to the other the other tool
here.
00;22;43;25 - 00;22;46;20
It's this big,
massive spreadsheet in Excel.
00;22;46;20 - 00;22;51;27
It's probably a be too small for people
to see, but it's a whole bunch of
00;22;51;29 - 00;22;52;22
boxes.
00;22;52;22 - 00;22;57;06
You've got Q numbers,
aq1, you've got A1 to G,
00;22;57;06 - 00;22;59;26
or maybe even more
and maybe even different tabs.
00;22;59;26 - 00;23;02;21
So, what can you tell me about this
particular tool?
00;23;02;21 - 00;23;05;24
Yeah, so this is the Sheffield
features of Gate Tool,
00;23;05;24 - 00;23;10;02
which was developed in the United Kingdom
for Professor Ivan Birch.
00;23;10;02 - 00;23;15;01
He's been prolific
in forensic Gates analysis.
00;23;15;04 - 00;23;17;04
He and his team developed this
00;23;17;04 - 00;23;21;04
and what it does is it's
kind of like a check.
00;23;21;04 - 00;23;24;13
Mark takes you through the whole process
from head to toe.
00;23;24;15 - 00;23;30;06
So, the Q on Q two that will be referencing
the footage.
00;23;30;06 - 00;23;33;08
The Q one will be footage one for two,
and that's question four.
00;23;33;13 - 00;23;38;11
So, the question footage
will be from a crime scene. So
00;23;38;13 - 00;23;41;27
and I'll have the image
that I'm looking at and then I'll start
00;23;41;27 - 00;23;46;19
going through this tool,
this spreadsheet, starting at the head.
00;23;46;19 - 00;23;47;23
What's the head doing?
00;23;47;23 - 00;23;48;05
Okay.
00;23;48;05 - 00;23;50;06
Is the head moving left, or right?
00;23;50;06 - 00;23;53;03
Is the head held forward of the body?
Is it tilted?
00;23;53;03 - 00;23;56;28
We're looking for all these
these different little aspects.
00;23;57;01 - 00;23;59;29
Now, it also depends on what angle I have
00;23;59;29 - 00;24;03;21
and how much video I have
that I'm able to use this tool
00;24;03;21 - 00;24;06;14
because some of the areas
I won't be able to see.
00;24;06;14 - 00;24;10;27
So, if it's if I'm looking at them
from the front on the video,
00;24;11;00 - 00;24;14;00
if there's a feature
which is better seen from the side,
00;24;14;03 - 00;24;16;12
then it's going to be difficult
for me to comment on.
00;24;16;12 - 00;24;18;28
So, for example, I'm
looking at the directly head on.
00;24;18;28 - 00;24;23;27
I may not see the
angulation of the knee,
00;24;23;29 - 00;24;24;10
you know,
00;24;24;10 - 00;24;28;09
which will then mean
I can't comment on this, this form.
00;24;28;09 - 00;24;32;26
So you go through the form, you end up
checking off all the features that you see
00;24;32;28 - 00;24;35;15
on the first piece of footage
you need that every other piece
00;24;35;15 - 00;24;37;04
of footage that you have.
00;24;37;04 - 00;24;39;20
And then when you get
the reference footage.
00;24;39;20 - 00;24;43;11
So, the investigator has a suspect
which they've obtained video
00;24;43;11 - 00;24;46;11
of them walking, and that's when I will do
00;24;46;12 - 00;24;49;21
independently of the question footage.
00;24;49;21 - 00;24;51;08
I'll do an analysis of that.
00;24;51;08 - 00;24;53;08
And then at the end of the day,
we bring them together
00;24;53;08 - 00;24;56;00
and we see how many of those features
align.
00;24;56;00 - 00;25;01;08
Okay, That's sort of guide me
as to how likely they are or may not be.
00;25;01;10 - 00;25;05;01
I guess ideally, you'd want
well, you'd be great
00;25;05;01 - 00;25;07;29
if you get the suspect from all kinds of
different angles, from different cameras
00;25;07;29 - 00;25;11;19
and that sort of thing, which I guess
sometimes you probably have some of that.
00;25;11;22 - 00;25;12;13
Yeah.
00;25;12;13 - 00;25;17;16
And thing is, in Canada
we don't have the CCTV system
00;25;17;16 - 00;25;21;14
that they seem to have in other countries
like in the UK is cameras everywhere.
00;25;21;16 - 00;25;23;29
So, the amount of footage you can get
00;25;23;29 - 00;25;28;24
can be vast, whereas over here
you might get one camera.
00;25;28;27 - 00;25;29;27
And so, it
00;25;29;27 - 00;25;33;19
can be very limiting too to,
you know what, I can actually come into
00;25;33;21 - 00;25;36;26
if you have to have one angle, one camera
angle
00;25;37;02 - 00;25;40;02
to analyze a suspect,
00;25;40;03 - 00;25;43;27
assuming it's daylight nice and clear,
what would that angle be?
00;25;44;00 - 00;25;46;23
Well, it's kind of a cheap right,
because we look at the body
00;25;46;23 - 00;25;49;08
in three different planes. Yeah.
00;25;49;08 - 00;25;51;28
So, one that captures all three planes,
I guess. So.
00;25;51;28 - 00;25;55;15
Kind of above and kind of to the side
a little bit.
00;25;55;22 - 00;25;56;28
So, the front-end side.
00;25;56;28 - 00;26;00;09
So that would be ideal.
00;26;00;12 - 00;26;03;05
But yeah, the slide you put up here,
00;26;03;05 - 00;26;07;00
these are the three planes
that we can view the body.
00;26;07;02 - 00;26;10;03
So, the sagittal plane and you can imagine
00;26;10;03 - 00;26;13;12
putting a plate of glass
right down the middle of the body.
00;26;13;15 - 00;26;18;01
So, movements along that plane, you know,
that will be the sagittal plane.
00;26;18;01 - 00;26;22;09
So, I can comment on,
you know, how far to say the arm move
00;26;22;12 - 00;26;23;14
when they're on the swing.
00;26;23;14 - 00;26;25;06
How far does it move in front of the body?
00;26;25;06 - 00;26;27;05
How far does it move behind the body?
00;26;27;05 - 00;26;30;16
I'll also be able to see,
does he hold the head forward of the body?
00;26;30;17 - 00;26;32;13
Does he drop his chin down?
00;26;32;13 - 00;26;36;05
You know, that's something that can be
easily viewed in sagittal point
00;26;36;07 - 00;26;37;18
your transverse plane there.
00;26;37;18 - 00;26;40;08
It's like if you play a glass
right through the body.
00;26;40;08 - 00;26;42;10
So twisting motions.
00;26;42;10 - 00;26;47;26
Okay, so if the shoulders are, you know,
twisting your wings, we may call it
00;26;47;29 - 00;26;48;07
that.
00;26;48;07 - 00;26;50;12
So that's the angle that we see that.
00;26;50;12 - 00;26;54;11
And then the frontal plane
also known as the coronal plane
00;26;54;14 - 00;26;54;28
again.
00;26;54;28 - 00;26;58;08
So, anything
that's moving away or towards the body.
00;26;58;11 - 00;27;03;28
So, if you can imagine the feet
being out, towed or towed,
00;27;04;00 - 00;27;08;00
we'll be able to see that quite clearly
in the in the frontal point.
00;27;08;02 - 00;27;10;19
So, an angle that accompany
or sort of covers
00;27;10;19 - 00;27;13;16
all three of those planes
would be perfect.
00;27;13;16 - 00;27;14;13
Okay.
00;27;14;13 - 00;27;17;21
When you so when you do the reference
00;27;17;24 - 00;27;20;14
video, are you capturing that
00;27;20;14 - 00;27;23;22
also, from these potato
to capture these particular planes?
00;27;23;23 - 00;27;26;25
Are you getting even more like
what do you what's sort of a best practice
00;27;26;25 - 00;27;30;16
in order to get the right video
as a reference.
00;27;30;23 - 00;27;31;02
Yeah.
00;27;31;02 - 00;27;38;19
So ideally you reference video you want to
have similar to your question footage
00;27;38;21 - 00;27;40;00
if possible.
00;27;40;00 - 00;27;42;14
If not, then we just work
with what we have.
00;27;42;14 - 00;27;43;23
But at the end of the day,
00;27;43;23 - 00;27;46;28
the investigator is going to be providing
that that video footage.
00;27;46;28 - 00;27;49;28
I can help advise them on how to get that.
00;27;50;04 - 00;27;55;01
The once they've identified
somebody of interest,
00;27;55;04 - 00;27;57;00
you know,
they may go say they go to the mall
00;27;57;00 - 00;28;00;22
and they may be able to get them footage
of that person walking around.
00;28;00;24 - 00;28;04;24
I've even had it where they've had
in custody video footage.
00;28;04;26 - 00;28;08;21
So, they have to be careful
because if you start directing
00;28;08;21 - 00;28;11;21
somebody to walk in an area
00;28;11;28 - 00;28;15;14
that can be problematic legally,
00;28;15;16 - 00;28;18;26
you know, I mean, video in a custody
00;28;18;26 - 00;28;21;26
suite is it's known
that it's there, it's fixed.
00;28;22;00 - 00;28;25;09
And but if you stop
so, you have somebody under arrest
00;28;25;09 - 00;28;28;16
and you start directing them into areas
they wouldn't normally be
00;28;28;16 - 00;28;31;26
just to capture them on video,
that could be a problem there.
00;28;31;26 - 00;28;34;24
And you may be in the realms of warrants
and things like that.
00;28;34;24 - 00;28;37;14
So, a lot of them will go out,
the investigators will go out
00;28;37;14 - 00;28;40;15
and they'll do surveillance
and they'll have a team
00;28;40;15 - 00;28;43;26
with a camera
videoing this person out and about.
00;28;43;29 - 00;28;48;00
And, you know, that can be problematic
as well, because often
00;28;48;00 - 00;28;51;06
I've had them where the video
that panning as they're doing it.
00;28;51;08 - 00;28;57;22
So, you need a steady camera just watching
this guy, you know, walking around. So,
00;28;57;24 - 00;28;59;07
yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.
00;28;59;07 - 00;29;03;09
But ideally
if one the footage is similar as possible.
00;29;03;11 - 00;29;05;21
Yeah, video is obviously really important.
00;29;05;21 - 00;29;07;12
And there's a question, Yeah,
I was going to ask you about it
00;29;07;12 - 00;29;11;14
anyway, but it has to do with the frame
rate of the camera like that.
00;29;11;14 - 00;29;13;02
Obviously, it must be important
00;29;13;02 - 00;29;16;05
because if it's really like
you must consider the frame,
00;29;16;11 - 00;29;20;24
if it's really slow, like a really slow
frame rate versus variable frame rate.
00;29;20;24 - 00;29;23;19
So just wondering about the considerations
there.
00;29;23;19 - 00;29;29;09
Yeah, well, ideally what we look for
is a minimum of eight frames per second.
00;29;29;11 - 00;29;33;16
Anything below that becomes a real problem
because
00;29;33;19 - 00;29;38;22
when I'm looking at a piece of video,
I can do it frame by frame, slow it down,
00;29;38;22 - 00;29;42;02
and I can get some good detail of exactly
what's going on.
00;29;42;04 - 00;29;45;20
But if the frame rates too slow
and you're going frame by frame,
00;29;45;22 - 00;29;48;12
then the jump in the image,
00;29;48;12 - 00;29;51;12
you know, you could have had a whole step
go missing.
00;29;51;18 - 00;29;54;19
So, you want to find the higher
the frame rate, you're actually
00;29;54;19 - 00;29;59;14
capturing more of that person
walking on the video because you can lose
00;29;59;14 - 00;30;02;26
a lot of detail, a lot of information
with a low frame rate.
00;30;02;28 - 00;30;06;23
Now, the other thing that can happen
is with some of the systems
00;30;06;23 - 00;30;10;15
that we get is
you get compression in these video files.
00;30;10;17 - 00;30;14;18
So, the frame rate, if I do the properties
of that video footage,
00;30;14;21 - 00;30;19;03
will tell me the frame rate is 2030,
whatever it may be.
00;30;19;05 - 00;30;22;06
But it's not it’s actually
00;30;22;08 - 00;30;22;22
it's done
00;30;22;22 - 00;30;26;07
something to make that video
more viewable.
00;30;26;09 - 00;30;28;10
But the actual frame rate is very low.
00;30;28;10 - 00;30;29;14
So, you know,
00;30;29;14 - 00;30;30;06
you have to be very
00;30;30;06 - 00;30;33;16
I have to be very careful
when I'm sort of looking at that footage.
00;30;33;19 - 00;30;35;14
Right.
00;30;35;14 - 00;30;39;01
There was a slide that I recall, and I have
it here as well, so I'd like to show it.
00;30;39;01 - 00;30;43;15
But it has to do with the way
that you make conclusions
00;30;43;15 - 00;30;48;16
and the way that you report conclusions
and has I'll bring it up here in a second.
00;30;48;16 - 00;30;53;05
But has that changed over the years
in terms of what people can say in a gait
00;30;53;05 - 00;30;58;23
analysis, opinion versus today,
sort of what the standard is for that?
00;30;58;26 - 00;31;01;07
Yeah, it's
00;31;01;07 - 00;31;02;10
continually being developed.
00;31;02;10 - 00;31;06;27
So, the one they use in Gates analysis,
as you're showing on the screen here,
00;31;07;00 - 00;31;12;22
it was developed by the European Network
of Forensic Science Institute
00;31;12;24 - 00;31;15;14
and they've adopted it for gait
analysis.
00;31;15;14 - 00;31;19;07
Now, you got to remember Gates
analysis is not an identification tool,
00;31;19;09 - 00;31;24;09
so, there's no ratio's out there
that we can use to say this.
00;31;24;09 - 00;31;28;18
It's X number of percent more likely
to be this person, that person.
00;31;28;21 - 00;31;30;09
This is purely opinion based.
00;31;30;09 - 00;31;32;16
It's very subjective.
00;31;32;16 - 00;31;35;05
And this is the sort of the list
00;31;35;05 - 00;31;39;00
of conclusions as a verbal expression
00;31;39;03 - 00;31;40;19
when you come to
00;31;40;19 - 00;31;45;06
ultimately your end conclusion. So
00;31;45;09 - 00;31;49;06
when I'm doing an analysis using this
this chart,
00;31;49;08 - 00;31;53;23
if the video footage is no good,
if we can't really see anything,
00;31;53;26 - 00;31;54;20
you're going to be sitting there
00;31;54;20 - 00;31;57;20
right in the middle
that it's not providing any assistance.
00;31;57;20 - 00;31;59;13
So, we're either looking at
00;31;59;13 - 00;32;03;21
it is more likely to be the person
or it is not likely to be the person.
00;32;03;24 - 00;32;08;17
So, depending on how many features
that you're seeing which seem to align
00;32;08;23 - 00;32;10;08
between your reference footage
00;32;10;08 - 00;32;13;13
and your question footage,
the higher at that scale you can look out,
00;32;13;16 - 00;32;14;12
but you're never going to have
00;32;14;12 - 00;32;18;05
an identification
no different scientists in forensics
00;32;18;05 - 00;32;20;19
have their different scales
of conclusions.
00;32;20;19 - 00;32;24;19
This mythology has a slightly different
one fingerprinting.
00;32;24;25 - 00;32;27;05
You know, this has three have.
00;32;27;05 - 00;32;30;01
It is, it isn’t, or we don't know,
00;32;30;01 - 00;32;33;23
you know how simply but again
00;32;33;27 - 00;32;37;12
Gates analysis there's this quite a few
there that they use.
00;32;37;14 - 00;32;39;15
Okay.
00;32;39;17 - 00;32;40;11
I was going to ask you a
00;32;40;11 - 00;32;44;21
question
about as you're working on these cases,
00;32;44;24 - 00;32;47;20
have you ever had any
00;32;47;20 - 00;32;53;10
which were very difficult for you, like,
for example, in in the sense that
00;32;53;13 - 00;32;57;19
there's two people that look very,
very similar in terms of their walking
00;32;57;19 - 00;33;00;25
and they could for example, I can
I can see a point where two people
00;33;00;25 - 00;33;05;06
have the same style of walk,
but they're different people too.
00;33;05;06 - 00;33;07;04
And I don't know what the reason for
that would be,
00;33;07;04 - 00;33;08;14
but maybe somebody has a short leg
00;33;08;14 - 00;33;11;12
and the other person has a short leg
or something like that.
00;33;11;12 - 00;33;15;03
But if you've seen that a lot
or not really like
00;33;15;05 - 00;33;19;20
no, because when I get the footage
from the investigator,
00;33;19;21 - 00;33;22;18
it's very important
that they let me know who I'm looking at.
00;33;22;18 - 00;33;27;00
So, they should know, you know, if there's
a video and there's several people on it.
00;33;27;00 - 00;33;32;03
I mean, I've had
footage from shopping centers
00;33;32;05 - 00;33;32;12
where
00;33;32;12 - 00;33;35;11
there are dozens of people walking around,
00;33;35;15 - 00;33;39;02
and I didn't know who I was looking at
then.
00;33;39;05 - 00;33;41;09
You know, there's nothing
I can't do anything with that.
00;33;41;09 - 00;33;46;05
So, the investigator has to let me know
who I'm looking at now, where that can be
00;33;46;07 - 00;33;50;26
an issue is we talk about eyewitnesses,
and I mentioned that earlier.
00;33;50;28 - 00;33;53;22
So, an eyewitness may see
00;33;53;22 - 00;33;56;22
people who may see somebody
00;33;56;24 - 00;33;58;15
and give a description.
00;33;58;15 - 00;34;01;08
They were this tall.
Their head was like this.
00;34;01;08 - 00;34;03;14
They were wearing such and such clothing.
00;34;03;14 - 00;34;06;13
And when the investigator
looks at the video,
00;34;06;13 - 00;34;09;13
you see several people
who look exactly the same.
00;34;09;16 - 00;34;13;12
So, if that's why Witness was
then able to say
00;34;13;14 - 00;34;17;02
there was something unusual
about the way that they walked,
00;34;17;04 - 00;34;21;05
then that may, you know,
allow us to home in a little bit more
00;34;21;07 - 00;34;25;03
and actually, brings me around
because I was working two weeks ago
00;34;25;05 - 00;34;28;06
and just standing,
you know, on the side of the road.
00;34;28;06 - 00;34;33;21
And I was just watching people walking
and the two girls going to get a bus
00;34;33;23 - 00;34;37;20
and they looked identical same hair,
same clothes, same height.
00;34;37;24 - 00;34;38;25
Everything was the same.
00;34;38;25 - 00;34;40;13
You wouldn't be able to tell them
00;34;40;13 - 00;34;42;11
whether they worked at the same place,
I don't know.
00;34;42;11 - 00;34;44;09
But they looked identical.
00;34;44;09 - 00;34;48;14
But one of them, when she walked,
it was like a horse drop.
00;34;48;16 - 00;34;51;16
Her knees came upwards
before they went for walks.
00;34;51;22 - 00;34;55;06
And right there was
that was a difference.
00;34;55;13 - 00;34;59;29
So, you have two people who look the same,
but they walk differently.
00;35;00;04 - 00;35;04;02
Interesting,
you know, different types of analysis,
00;35;04;02 - 00;35;08;27
like one, for example, suspect
height analysis is a way of quantifying
00;35;09;00 - 00;35;10;16
how tall the person is.
00;35;10;16 - 00;35;14;04
And as I'm wondering if they're currently
on the list that you have,
00;35;14;09 - 00;35;17;05
there's a lot of sorts
of these qualitative things.
00;35;17;05 - 00;35;20;28
And I'm wondering if, for example,
you know, maybe you're watching a video
00;35;20;28 - 00;35;25;13
and I don't know, maybe there's
there's two people walking down
00;35;25;15 - 00;35;27;05
a roadway or something,
00;35;27;05 - 00;35;29;18
but, you know, height or something
plays a fact
00;35;29;18 - 00;35;32;10
or there's something that immediately
tells you, hey,
00;35;32;10 - 00;35;35;06
there has to be an exclusion here
because of some minor difference.
00;35;35;06 - 00;35;40;08
But have you ever run into any of that
or is any of that considered?
00;35;40;10 - 00;35;43;05
Not really,
because I always know who I'm looking at,
00;35;43;05 - 00;35;48;07
but in regard to height,
I'll keep that separate from my analysis
00;35;48;07 - 00;35;51;25
because I'm looking at the way
that they walk.
00;35;51;27 - 00;35;54;00
I'm not going to be doing
those measurements
00;35;54;00 - 00;35;58;00
if that is something that the investigator
wants to do aside,
00;35;58;00 - 00;36;03;03
and then as a complement to what I do,
then that may work well.
00;36;03;06 - 00;36;05;23
But as the gatehouse is,
it's purely visual.
00;36;05;23 - 00;36;10;06
You know, I'm using my expertise,
you know,
00;36;10;09 - 00;36;14;01
and basically
all forensic analysis will do that
00;36;14;04 - 00;36;17;04
is they're looking at the person
and what do I see?
00;36;17;04 - 00;36;18;18
They're not taking measurements.
00;36;18;18 - 00;36;20;10
We're not objectively
00;36;20;10 - 00;36;24;03
looking at it in the training data
because we can't do that from a video
00;36;24;03 - 00;36;28;09
because, you know, again, frame rates,
angles, quality of video.
00;36;28;12 - 00;36;31;02
You know,
I don't know what with the ground is flat.
00;36;31;02 - 00;36;33;05
They don't know what type of shoes
that were.
00;36;33;05 - 00;36;37;22
And there's so many different things
which can play into something like height.
00;36;37;25 - 00;36;38;13
So, you were
00;36;38;13 - 00;36;41;13
just looking at the way
that the body moves on that camera.
00;36;41;17 - 00;36;42;03
Okay.
00;36;42;03 - 00;36;45;13
I'd like to show the videos that you sent
me, and it's in the next slide.
00;36;45;13 - 00;36;49;27
So maybe I or
I guess I could keep playing it too,
00;36;49;27 - 00;36;52;14
but maybe you want to just sort of
00;36;52;14 - 00;36;55;07
give a description of what we're going
to see here just before I show it
00;36;55;07 - 00;36;58;17
so, people know what they're looking at
and I'll do the first one.
00;36;58;20 - 00;36;59;04
Yeah.
00;36;59;04 - 00;37;02;22
So, these videos were part
of a research project
00;37;02;22 - 00;37;05;27
I helped the University
of Toronto do last year.
00;37;05;27 - 00;37;09;18
And what we were looking to ascertain
is whether
00;37;09;21 - 00;37;13;03
a group of people
were able to recognize people
00;37;13;03 - 00;37;17;25
that they know, people that they work
with purely by the way that they walk.
00;37;17;25 - 00;37;20;27
And what we did is we disguised
00;37;21;00 - 00;37;22;12
a bunch of people.
00;37;22;12 - 00;37;27;23
So, they would get these videos
and they were given footage,
00;37;27;26 - 00;37;30;24
as you see, of individuals walking.
00;37;30;24 - 00;37;33;24
And when they got them,
they got five videos
00;37;33;24 - 00;37;38;03
and they were asked to name
or asked to identify somebody by name.
00;37;38;05 - 00;37;42;27
So, they would have known, you know, this
person they work with all these people.
00;37;43;00 - 00;37;47;03
But you can see here,
these two videos are different people.
00;37;47;03 - 00;37;49;15
The difference is
that you may be able to see.
00;37;49;15 - 00;37;52;23
So, for one, the cadence, the speed,
00;37;52;26 - 00;37;55;16
the image on the left,
the way the person walks is a lot
00;37;55;16 - 00;37;57;21
faster than the one on the right.
00;37;57;21 - 00;38;00;10
But just the way that the arms move,
00;38;00;10 - 00;38;04;15
the way the shoulder the has been held,
00;38;04;17 - 00;38;08;22
there's a lot of difference that the image
on the right you can see is very stiff.
00;38;08;24 - 00;38;11;29
The left shoulder barely moves.
00;38;12;01 - 00;38;13;24
Those are
the sort of things that we're looking at.
00;38;13;24 - 00;38;14;26
We're looking at, you know, what
00;38;14;26 - 00;38;18;26
position of the feet and, you know,
and this is from the frontal plane only.
00;38;18;26 - 00;38;23;07
So, we're not looking from,
you know, the sagittal or the transverse
00;38;23;09 - 00;38;23;28
one plane.
00;38;23;28 - 00;38;26;08
And you can see that
there's a lot of difference there.
00;38;26;08 - 00;38;29;08
I have a question. Do you find that
00;38;29;14 - 00;38;33;19
it's more difficult to distinguish
00;38;33;19 - 00;38;36;27
gait on people
who are younger versus people who are much
00;38;36;27 - 00;38;41;13
older?
00;38;41;15 - 00;38;43;02
It's tricky.
00;38;43;02 - 00;38;46;04
It depends on how young you're
talking about because the body is still
00;38;46;04 - 00;38;51;26
developing and gaits
be affected by many factors like injury.
00;38;51;29 - 00;38;56;00
So, as you get older, your gait may change.
00;38;56;02 - 00;39;02;06
If you have arthritis, for example, or
you've broken a leg, or something happens,
00;39;02;08 - 00;39;03;02
you know, that can
00;39;03;02 - 00;39;06;02
change the way that your
your gait functions.
00;39;06;02 - 00;39;09;18
So, the young
00;39;09;20 - 00;39;11;13
well,
like I said, when I was the other week,
00;39;11;13 - 00;39;13;25
there were two young girls
and I could clearly see a difference
00;39;13;25 - 00;39;14;26
in the way that they walk.
00;39;14;26 - 00;39;19;26
So, the very young guys,
the ones that are still growing,
00;39;19;29 - 00;39;22;17
that gait will change as they get older.
00;39;22;17 - 00;39;27;27
But when we're doing Gates analysis,
normally we're using smaller time frames.
00;39;28;00 - 00;39;30;13
So, the crime would have happened.
00;39;30;13 - 00;39;32;17
They're obtaining video pretty quickly.
00;39;32;17 - 00;39;36;05
They're doing an investigation
and they're finding a suspect.
00;39;36;05 - 00;39;42;23
So, I may begin the video
within a few days or even weeks or months.
00;39;42;26 - 00;39;45;17
You know, it's not going to be years.
00;39;45;17 - 00;39;47;27
Let me play the next video here.
00;39;47;27 - 00;39;49;02
There we go.
00;39;49;02 - 00;39;51;21
So, the first two males, these are females.
00;39;51;21 - 00;39;56;16
So, these two,
you can actually see how similar
00;39;56;18 - 00;40;00;18
it can
be between different people walking.
00;40;00;21 - 00;40;05;12
So, this is where the Gates analysts
analyst really comes in,
00;40;05;12 - 00;40;10;06
because they would be able to sort of
look into that finer detail.
00;40;10;08 - 00;40;12;17
I mean, just looking at that
as an eyewitness,
00;40;12;17 - 00;40;14;19
you're not going to see much difference
between them.
00;40;14;19 - 00;40;19;26
But when I look at those,
I do see the right foot,
00;40;19;29 - 00;40;22;06
the character on the right screen there.
00;40;22;06 - 00;40;24;20
There is a little bit
of a difference there that I'm noticing.
00;40;24;20 - 00;40;29;29
And the arms do swing a little bit
differently, but they are very similar.
00;40;29;29 - 00;40;33;00
So that can be some of the
some of the challenges that we have.
00;40;33;00 - 00;40;37;00
And that's where the shift
to features of Gate two really comes in
00;40;37;00 - 00;40;41;25
because it sort of allows you
to keep everything organized and detailed.
00;40;41;28 - 00;40;43;07
So, it helps to break that out.
00;40;43;07 - 00;40;46;16
These little differences, it
sort of scores them in a particular way.
00;40;46;18 - 00;40;47;12
Yes. Yes.
00;40;47;12 - 00;40;52;11
And then when I come to my conclusion,
it allows me to sort of speak to that.
00;40;52;13 - 00;40;53;09
Okay.
00;40;53;09 - 00;40;56;10
You talked about research, and
I do want to ask you a couple of questions
00;40;56;10 - 00;40;59;16
regarding some of the other research
that's been out there
00;40;59;18 - 00;41;04;01
and the name you mentioned before, Ivan
Birch, that he comes up quite frequently.
00;41;04;01 - 00;41;07;19
So, he must be doing quite a bit of work
in this in this particular area.
00;41;07;19 - 00;41;10;08
But do you know him by chance?
00;41;10;08 - 00;41;12;28
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a great guy.
00;41;12;28 - 00;41;14;12
What? Where is he out of?
00;41;14;12 - 00;41;14;22
Do you know?
00;41;14;22 - 00;41;17;22
Is he with
the university is in private practice.
00;41;17;26 - 00;41;20;23
So, he's in the UK and the Sheffield
Teaching Hospital.
00;41;20;23 - 00;41;24;15
I believe it is. Okay. Interesting.
00;41;24;17 - 00;41;25;09
So, there was
00;41;25;09 - 00;41;28;23
a there was a study
that was I think it was called the,
00;41;28;26 - 00;41;32;17
the identification of individuals
by observational data analysis
00;41;32;17 - 00;41;35;16
using closed circuit television footage
and they're comparing
00;41;35;19 - 00;41;39;06
the ability and confidence of experienced
and non experienced analysts.
00;41;39;06 - 00;41;43;12
So, people that have,
you know, no study or whatever,
00;41;43;15 - 00;41;45;19
and then people who are deeply this.
00;41;45;19 - 00;41;49;24
What can you tell me about that
particular study and some of the findings?
00;41;49;26 - 00;41;50;05
Yeah.
00;41;50;05 - 00;41;53;05
So essentially
00;41;53;05 - 00;41;55;26
people who have no experience
with case analysis
00;41;55;26 - 00;41;59;05
and people who are experienced with gait
00;41;59;08 - 00;42;02;19
were given footage to review
00;42;02;21 - 00;42;06;11
and compare
and they actually found that people
00;42;06;11 - 00;42;09;11
with no experience were able to do this.
00;42;09;16 - 00;42;11;07
In fact, they were more confident
00;42;11;07 - 00;42;15;19
in their findings
than people who have training in gait.
00;42;15;21 - 00;42;16;26
So, it was interesting
00;42;16;26 - 00;42;20;17
and the research that I did
with Toronto University
00;42;20;19 - 00;42;24;23
found the same thing
that people with no training in gait
00;42;24;26 - 00;42;29;23
were able to recognize people purely
by the way that they walk.
00;42;29;25 - 00;42;33;07
I mean, I found when we did our research,
I had people coming up to me
00;42;33;07 - 00;42;33;25
afterwards saying,
00;42;33;25 - 00;42;38;02
Oh yeah, I know who that person was
by the sound of them walking.
00;42;38;05 - 00;42;41;13
So, they were picking up all sorts of stuff
and it just got them thinking.
00;42;41;13 - 00;42;45;29
It's interesting, you know, that they're
finding that they're seeing those things,
00;42;46;01 - 00;42;50;09
but it supports the eyewitness testimony
that somebody with no training
00;42;50;12 - 00;42;54;17
can recognize that there is a difference
in the way that people walk.
00;42;54;17 - 00;42;55;07
And that's important.
00;42;55;07 - 00;42;58;28
When you go to court to speak to the jury,
you're educating the court
00;42;59;01 - 00;43;02;03
that you can say,
yeah, you can all do this.
00;43;02;05 - 00;43;03;11
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
00;43;03;11 - 00;43;06;17
And I think that's one thing
which most people do understand,
00;43;06;17 - 00;43;08;11
especially when it's somebody
you're familiar with.
00;43;08;11 - 00;43;12;14
I mean, I can't tell you whether it's
your kids or whether it's whatever.
00;43;12;14 - 00;43;15;18
You know, they could be across
the shopping mall or whatever.
00;43;15;18 - 00;43;17;07
And you can see them coming
because, you know,
00;43;17;07 - 00;43;19;18
the way they walk,
they have an arm that goes on a little bit
00;43;19;18 - 00;43;21;02
more than the other
or something like that.
00;43;21;02 - 00;43;24;23
So, I think from that
regard, it's interesting.
00;43;24;26 - 00;43;27;26
Do you think it's necessary for
there was in one of the
00;43;28;03 - 00;43;32;00
I think in one of the studies
somebody had mentioned
00;43;32;03 - 00;43;35;12
that it really is unknown at this point
00;43;35;14 - 00;43;39;28
whether or not that gait
is something unique
00;43;40;01 - 00;43;41;08
to an individual.
00;43;41;08 - 00;43;43;19
And I'm not sure if that matters or
not right now.
00;43;43;19 - 00;43;46;14
But I'm just curious
on your opinion on that.
00;43;46;16 - 00;43;49;26
Yeah,
well, I think the courts like uniqueness.
00;43;49;28 - 00;43;54;02
You know, it's a definitive answer,
00;43;54;04 - 00;43;57;03
but gait analysis as it stands now
00;43;57;03 - 00;43;59;28
and the way that we do it in the forensic
00;43;59;28 - 00;44;03;09
well, you can't say it's unique
00;44;03;11 - 00;44;05;04
in a clinical setting.
00;44;05;04 - 00;44;09;25
You can measure smaller and smaller
until you find uniqueness, you know,
00;44;09;25 - 00;44;13;05
but that's clinical
setting using advanced technology
00;44;13;05 - 00;44;16;04
and computer systems.
00;44;16;05 - 00;44;19;19
But with the advancements
of artificial intelligence,
00;44;19;21 - 00;44;24;18
I mean, where this could go,
you've got countries like China and Russia
00;44;24;21 - 00;44;27;21
who are already
who are already doing this, really,
00;44;27;28 - 00;44;31;21
they've got computer systems
who are recording the public, moving
00;44;31;21 - 00;44;35;26
around the biometrics that they're using
to keep track on people that it exists
00;44;35;26 - 00;44;39;18
and they're developing those systems.
00;44;39;21 - 00;44;43;05
India is very active in the biometrics
they're using
00;44;43;08 - 00;44;44;18
and catching their criminals.
00;44;44;18 - 00;44;48;10
I think one case, they just use
Gates analysis and they send somebody
00;44;48;10 - 00;44;51;28
to death row for a rape and murder.
00;44;52;01 - 00;44;55;19
So yeah, other
countries have taken it on board.
00;44;55;19 - 00;44;59;24
But whether it's
they're using it as an ID, I don't know.
00;44;59;24 - 00;45;01;10
But eventually
00;45;01;10 - 00;45;06;21
the computers are going to the artificial
intelligence is going to be so good that
00;45;06;23 - 00;45;07;26
that's going to be used.
00;45;07;26 - 00;45;11;18
But you're always going to need
that human element to keep it honest.
00;45;11;21 - 00;45;14;12
The verification process is important.
00;45;14;12 - 00;45;17;12
So even if you have a computer
which is doing this,
00;45;17;17 - 00;45;21;18
the verify would need to be
a human being to say, Yeah, yeah, right.
00;45;21;20 - 00;45;26;00
Have many of the tools
that you use gotten better over the years,
00;45;26;07 - 00;45;29;20
You know, for data analysis are there
00;45;29;23 - 00;45;33;02
you know, I don't know if just maybe
like the software using for video
00;45;33;02 - 00;45;36;12
or maybe other things
that you are using for analysis
00;45;36;12 - 00;45;39;20
on the on the image for measuring
and things like that.
00;45;39;22 - 00;45;42;10
Are there tools readily available
for people out there?
00;45;42;10 - 00;45;47;28
Well, for what I do, it's the better
the quality that I can see on the screen
00;45;48;00 - 00;45;49;23
that works for me.
00;45;49;23 - 00;45;52;14
So, I'm not taking measurements.
00;45;52;14 - 00;45;57;11
So, the software
that I use allows me to view it.
00;45;57;14 - 00;46;00;13
And as long as I can see it clearly
00;46;00;13 - 00;46;06;00
and I can use Zoom in features, but
I'm not changing anything on the screen,
00;46;06;02 - 00;46;09;12
you know that
that's as good as it gets right now.
00;46;09;14 - 00;46;12;01
But I'm not using anything else,
any other technology.
00;46;12;01 - 00;46;16;09
I mean, I'm sure it'll come,
but right now, it's
00;46;16;11 - 00;46;19;11
if I have a piece of software
that allows me to see that footage,
00;46;19;18 - 00;46;23;12
the best images, I can see it,
then that's, that's what I need.
00;46;23;18 - 00;46;24;01
Okay. Yeah.
00;46;24;01 - 00;46;27;05
So, video software is obviously that the
the both the key
00;46;27;11 - 00;46;32;17
piece of software or tool
that you'll be using for sure.
00;46;32;19 - 00;46;34;15
Let me ask you about
00;46;34;18 - 00;46;35;24
future research.
00;46;35;24 - 00;46;38;00
You obviously did some things
with the University of Toronto,
00;46;38;00 - 00;46;41;22
and I'm wondering,
are you planning on some other things
00;46;41;22 - 00;46;45;14
going forward,
some other interesting areas?
00;46;45;17 - 00;46;50;14
Or let me ask it this way
What areas of data analysis require
00;46;50;16 - 00;46;55;25
more fundamental
testing and experimentation and study?
00;46;55;27 - 00;47;00;07
I just think more research
along the same lines that we've been doing
00;47;00;09 - 00;47;04;12
is to show that, you know,
there's validity to what we're doing,
00;47;04;14 - 00;47;09;03
that, you know, we can see differences
in the way that people walk.
00;47;09;06 - 00;47;12;12
At the end of the day, it's
when we get to the core that, you know,
00;47;12;12 - 00;47;16;07
we're able to educate the court and say,
look, know, what we're seeing here
00;47;16;09 - 00;47;21;05
is there's a clear difference or,
you know, there isn't.
00;47;21;07 - 00;47;23;10
So, you know, it's
00;47;23;10 - 00;47;27;24
it's along those lines, really, because,
00;47;27;27 - 00;47;30;17
as I say, technology gets better
and better.
00;47;30;17 - 00;47;33;17
I think research is going to be involved
with that
00;47;33;24 - 00;47;36;24
to see how reliable that's going to be.
00;47;36;24 - 00;47;38;25
But the research is already being done
right now.
00;47;38;25 - 00;47;42;29
I mean, finding the time to do
it is always,
00;47;43;02 - 00;47;45;22
always an issue. Yes.
00;47;45;22 - 00;47;48;22
You know, I'd like to see in Canada
more Gates
00;47;48;23 - 00;47;53;01
analysts being trained to do this,
00;47;53;04 - 00;47;54;24
you know, and then that's
00;47;54;24 - 00;47;57;24
going to be a good thing,
I think, for the future.
00;47;57;28 - 00;48;02;23
Yeah, I mean, you are being one of the few
or the only one in Canada right now,
00;48;02;25 - 00;48;04;04
I don't. You must be lonely there.
00;48;04;04 - 00;48;06;18
You have no nobody
to nobody to talk to here.
00;48;06;18 - 00;48;09;28
I guess it makes verifications
a little challenging.
00;48;10;05 - 00;48;11;06
So. Yeah.
00;48;11;06 - 00;48;14;24
What kind of I'm curious about trial,
you know,
00;48;14;27 - 00;48;20;11
and challenges from Defense
or from Crown or whatever.
00;48;20;14 - 00;48;24;17
What kinds of things
do they typically ask you?
00;48;24;20 - 00;48;28;20
You know, as you know, as an analyst
or an expert in this area?
00;48;28;22 - 00;48;31;07
Have you ever thrown
you try to throw a curveball?
00;48;31;07 - 00;48;33;01
Is there, something that comes up over
and over.
00;48;33;01 - 00;48;35;21
Just curious
about your experience at trial.
00;48;35;21 - 00;48;39;15
Yeah, well, all my Gates Answers
cases have yet to go to trial.
00;48;39;15 - 00;48;42;15
So, you know, if not, have the
00;48;42;18 - 00;48;46;21
you know, the pleasure
of being first announced announces.
00;48;46;21 - 00;48;50;17
Yes, but it has happened
and it has been accepted in the courts
00;48;50;19 - 00;48;54;16
in the US and UK and here in Canada.
00;48;54;19 - 00;48;58;09
So back in 2009 and British
00;48;58;09 - 00;49;04;06
Columbia was
a case of us is making the case
00;49;04;09 - 00;49;09;00
it was admitted and accepted
00;49;09;02 - 00;49;12;21
is as evidence. So
00;49;12;23 - 00;49;16;25
about do you know
do you know what kind of case that was?
00;49;16;27 - 00;49;19;08
The shooting homicide, I believe.
00;49;19;08 - 00;49;20;14
Okay.
00;49;20;14 - 00;49;23;17
But there was a lot of questions
after that one
00;49;23;18 - 00;49;26;25
as to the way the expert
00;49;26;27 - 00;49;30;02
conducted themselves wasn't the science
00;49;30;02 - 00;49;33;07
of gait analysis, which was the problem.
00;49;33;10 - 00;49;36;05
It was expert
witness testimony in general.
00;49;36;05 - 00;49;40;10
And I think that's
where you really sort of,
00;49;40;13 - 00;49;44;17
you know, sort of on your mettle,
as it would be in the case,
00;49;44;18 - 00;49;48;28
is as an expert, is you're able to explain
exactly what you're doing.
00;49;49;00 - 00;49;52;23
So, the court understands as well as you do
00;49;52;25 - 00;49;54;02
what is being done.
00;49;54;02 - 00;49;55;24
So, if the court doesn't understand
00;49;55;24 - 00;50;00;15
what you're talking about, then
you haven't done your job, even though the
00;50;00;17 - 00;50;03;16
the evidence may be sound
and everybody can see it.
00;50;03;16 - 00;50;07;16
If you can't explain it,
then then that's an issue, right?
00;50;07;16 - 00;50;07;28
It doesn't.
00;50;07;28 - 00;50;10;05
Yeah. Often the that's a very common
theme.
00;50;10;05 - 00;50;12;27
It's not the science or the technology
or whatever.
00;50;12;27 - 00;50;17;01
It's usually the expert and their ability
to even
00;50;17;05 - 00;50;20;06
not only to explain, but
to follow protocol, to like if they're not
00;50;20;06 - 00;50;26;18
following a procedure or some kind of a
a standard like you is doing with the
00;50;26;25 - 00;50;31;08
the Sheffield's is what's called the shift
features gate.
00;50;31;10 - 00;50;34;10
You know that's a cautionary tale
to people who want to get into gates
00;50;34;10 - 00;50;37;10
analysis
forensic analysis is you know you may be
00;50;37;10 - 00;50;41;13
very well versed in in your craft,
but getting to court,
00;50;41;15 - 00;50;42;24
that's a whole different game.
00;50;42;24 - 00;50;44;16
You know, it can be a very lonely place.
00;50;44;16 - 00;50;48;28
So, if you don't know what you're doing
that everything to unravel pretty quickly.
00;50;49;01 - 00;50;50;07
Yeah.
00;50;50;07 - 00;50;52;13
So, for those for those
who do want to start
00;50;52;13 - 00;50;55;13
looking into gait analysis,
00;50;55;16 - 00;50;59;01
you know, as a discipline
that they are interested in, what's
00;50;59;01 - 00;51;01;20
where is the best place
to start right now?
00;51;01;20 - 00;51;07;13
Well, there's a ton of research and there's a ton of information on the Internet.
00;51;07;15 - 00;51;08;27
I'm always available if they
00;51;08;27 - 00;51;13;29
want to talk to me
to get more information.
00;51;14;01 - 00;51;18;08
You know, it's really you need to sort of
where are you right now?
00;51;18;08 - 00;51;19;26
If you're interested in Gates analysis,
00;51;19;26 - 00;51;22;26
what's your level of education
at this current time?
00;51;22;27 - 00;51;25;16
Because you have the Gates analysis
side of it
00;51;25;16 - 00;51;28;16
and then you have
the sort of the whole forensic world.
00;51;28;20 - 00;51;32;04
I'm fortunate
because working in policing and forensic
00;51;32;07 - 00;51;35;07
policing
that I've been exposed to a lot of that.
00;51;35;14 - 00;51;39;24
But most people around the globe,
they're not in my position.
00;51;39;29 - 00;51;45;12
So, the whole sort of the legal side of
it is a huge learning curve for them.
00;51;45;14 - 00;51;49;26
And is there a particular background
that somebody needs to do this?
00;51;49;26 - 00;51;54;05
You sort of answered it at the beginning,
but I'm wondering if there is
00;51;54;08 - 00;51;55;29
an advantage to having a
00;51;55;29 - 00;51;59;26
background sort of like you have
because you are studying,
00;51;59;28 - 00;52;01;13
you know, things like the mechanics
00;52;01;13 - 00;52;04;13
and a lot of different things
related to the body.
00;52;04;16 - 00;52;06;17
So, what would you suggest there?
00;52;06;17 - 00;52;11;13
Yeah, if you have a background,
a general understanding of body mechanics,
00;52;11;16 - 00;52;14;16
you know, biomechanics,
that's a good place to start.
00;52;14;17 - 00;52;18;03
But even there are case analysis out there
00;52;18;03 - 00;52;23;00
whose background is in video,
the video analysis.
00;52;23;03 - 00;52;26;20
So, it doesn't have too necessarily be,
you know, your background
00;52;26;20 - 00;52;29;20
solely in the way that people move
00;52;29;25 - 00;52;32;15
human biomechanics.
00;52;32;15 - 00;52;37;01
You know, you have an understanding
and be able to do those comparisons.
00;52;37;03 - 00;52;37;20
Okay.
00;52;37;20 - 00;52;41;20
Hey, if somebody wants to get
a hold of you, you are on.
00;52;41;23 - 00;52;44;16
Yes. And it's public profile.
00;52;44;16 - 00;52;45;11
Could I show it?
00;52;45;11 - 00;52;47;17
I don't know if you mind. Yeah,
that's fine.
00;52;47;17 - 00;52;48;22
Okay. I'm just going to put it up here.
00;52;48;22 - 00;52;52;28
But if you are interested
in sending a message to Nick here
00;52;53;00 - 00;52;56;15
on LinkedIn, and I know
00;52;56;17 - 00;53;00;08
it sounds like you've done
some work for other agencies as well,
00;53;00;08 - 00;53;04;13
they probably come to peel and ask you
maybe for some advice sometime soon.
00;53;04;15 - 00;53;05;08
Yes. Yes.
00;53;05;08 - 00;53;10;10
I've worked with many different agencies
throughout Canada
00;53;10;13 - 00;53;11;20
and it's gaining traction.
00;53;11;20 - 00;53;13;26
I'm getting more and more work.
00;53;13;26 - 00;53;18;07
Oh, I'm sure, because I don't
I don't think people know where to go. So,
00;53;18;10 - 00;53;21;03
you know, they're probably looking for
people and, you know, unless they know
00;53;21;03 - 00;53;23;15
you personally or know
somebody who knows you personally,
00;53;23;15 - 00;53;27;16
they probably don't realize that,
you know, it's available to them.
00;53;27;16 - 00;53;30;10
So, yeah, Nick is here on LinkedIn.
00;53;30;10 - 00;53;32;21
And Nick, look, thank you very much.
00;53;32;21 - 00;53;34;12
I really appreciate your time.
00;53;34;12 - 00;53;36;17
It's an interesting topic
that I haven't addressed before.
00;53;36;17 - 00;53;37;09
And again, you know,
00;53;37;09 - 00;53;40;03
as you can tell, are having a hard time
trying to even find people.
00;53;40;03 - 00;53;43;10
It sounds like there's
just a small community of great analysts
00;53;43;10 - 00;53;44;02
around the world.
00;53;44;02 - 00;53;47;11
And like you said,
hopefully it's going to grow.
00;53;47;13 - 00;53;48;22
Yeah, I hope so, too.
00;53;48;22 - 00;53;51;20
It's going to be interesting
what happens in the future.
00;53;51;20 - 00;53;53;25
Thank you. Well, thank you again.
00;53;53;25 - 00;53;56;18
Hang back for a second
and then I'll come back and chat with you.
00;53;56;18 - 00;53;59;18
Okay, great. Thank you, Larry. Cheers.
00;53;59;20 - 00;54;01;02
So, folks, thank you very much.
00;54;01;02 - 00;54;04;02
Happy Thursday and we will see you soon.
00;54;04;03 - 00;54;05;00
Take care. Bye.
