EP 96 | Michael Moulden | Investigating Fire Scenes

Michael Moulden is a seasoned Fire Scene and Chartered Crime Scene investigator with over 30 years of experience, having conducted 1000+ investigations globally. Holding a master's degree in forensic engineering and science from the Royal Military College, Mike is an Honorary Fellow at Cranfield University and a senior research fellow at the University of Exeter. Currently, he serves as a Crime Scene Science and Fire Investigation expert at the Naif Arab University for Security Science (NAUSS) in Riyadh, contributing to training, research, consultancy, and casework. Mike's diverse career includes roles with EFI Global and Zetetech Forensic Investigations, with notable investigations such as the UN-backed Special Tribunal for Lebanon, Grenfell Tower, and the German Wings Mass Homicide. His commitment extends to volunteering with Geoscope Services, aiding in the forensic recovery of Allied POW/MIA war casualties. Mike's international impact encompasses five tours in Afghanistan, mentoring a crime scene investigation unit for the Afghan Ministry of Interior, and providing training to Ukrainian Law Enforcement. A dedicated educator, he continues to deliver crime scene documentation training for the Institute of International Criminal Investigations (IICI) based in the Hague, making Mike a distinguished speaker for our Forensics Talks program.

Originally aired on: Jan 18, 2023

Transcript

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Ahora.

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Everyone, welcome. It's Eugene here, and welcome to episode 96 of forensics talks. Today, we're going to be speaking to Michael Malden about crime scene investigation and especially investigating fire scenes.

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let's talk about Michael Moulden.

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he is a seasoned fire scene and charted crime scene investigator with over 30 years of experience. And he's conducted well over a thousand investigations globally. He has a master's degree in forensic engineering and science from the Royal Military College, and he's an honorary fellow at Cranfield University and a senior research fellow at the University of Exeter.

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Now, Mike currently serves as crime scene science and fire investigation expert at Knife Arab University for Security Science, and that's in Riyadh.

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And he contributes to training, research consultancy and also casework. Now, Mike has a diverse career and he's done a whole number of different types of investigations, things that I want to ask him about today,

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the UNbacked special tribunal for Lebanon,

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the Grenfell Tower.

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That happened a while back, and even the German wing's mass homicide. You know, his commitment extends to volunteering with your school services, aiding in the forensic recovery of allied P.O.W.s and my

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war casualties. Now, Mike's international impact encompasses five tours in Afghanistan, mentoring a crime scene investigation unit for the Afghan Ministry of the Interior and providing training to

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Ukrainian law enforcement and crime scene documentation training for the Institute of International Criminal Investigations based in The Hague.

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And I was very fortunate to meet Mike not too long ago at the conference that I've been talking about in Riyadh. It's been a very fruitful conference, and we didn't speak for very long, but we had a very good conversation. And one of the things we talked about was agreeing to get together and chat about this. So let me let me bring him in here.

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There he is. Hey, Mike. Hi. How are you? How are you? I'm great, thank you very much. And I appreciate your time. And it's obviously later in the day you are in Riyadh, so

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little later. So, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. No problem. Of course. It is obviously a pleasure to be here and thanks for I was just a bit surreal because I normally watching these as opposed to being on it.

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So. Yeah, well, you're here now. I've roped in so I appreciate it, but

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we haven't really well, we didn't really know each other that well. But I did know of you. I mean, I've seen like, posts. I remember seeing posts of yours online and that sort of thing, But we never really

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sort of spoken or met until prior to the conference, which was an excellent conference, by the way.

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Yeah. I think it did a really great job of bringing a lot of international people together, and I was really impressed with the level of forensics

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in and around Saudi Arabia as well. There's some really, really good researchers there. So yeah, how. Let me ask you about the fire investigation. So, if you're if you’re you teaching about fire investigations in that area?

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Yeah, we're trying to make Arab University. It's kind of one of the leading universities in the Arab region, and that's 22 nations. And so, we're trying to

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improve and liaise and kind of facilitate a wider community in terms of both crime scene investigation of bias, investigation. And yes, I've just been brought in to try and facilitate that and to try and bring some international sort of standards and some expertise, I guess.

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Although having said that, there's a great deal of expertise already here in the in the Arabic region,

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I think there's a bit of a misconception about, you know, the actual nation of kingdom of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. It's very kind of open now,

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but massive changes over the last two or three years. And so, yeah, so we're looking to

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spread the word, if you like.

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We're looking to liaise and to build relationships with all of the Arabic and Arabic nations and also internationally as well. AS So you came to the conference of a number of international institutes, universities that came. We have a great deal of amusement, memorandums of understanding with Interpol and various different UN bodies, UNODC, for example. So, we are really the hub

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of

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that kind of liaison.

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We've got a digital center here as well, Counter Counterterrorism and Digital Cybercrime Unit.

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We've got a great deal of expertise here as much as a lot of expertise. And so yeah, just on a very small part of that culture really just to try and,

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you know, bring forensic science and bring

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knowledge and expertise to the area, I suppose.

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Yeah, well, I mean, you have an extensive career and it's been a long journey. And every time I talk to you, tell me about someplace new that you've been or your work that I can't keep track anymore. So, let's rewind the clock back now. And,

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know, I've started asking people about I just I don't know why I'm interested in this, but about when they were actually really young.

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And I think that's going to be the first question I talk about. You know, sometimes people talk about, you know, I started in university, but I'm actually curious about you as a, you know, youngster. And what were your interests? Were you into, you know, was crime scene or policing a thing? Is it running your family? Like, how did you get into this?

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I mean, it does run in the family. My father's in the military, sister stepsisters in the police,

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number of other extended family members, all in military or police.

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My brother was in the army as well. So, I knew from pretty early on that I was probably going to go one of those two routes. But I think what really kicked off the forensic detective is in me wanted to be a detective and was that my father bought me the entire work of Sherlock Holmes when I was about nine or ten.

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And yeah, I didn't necessarily understand all the words in it at that age, but I kind of got up. I got the concept of basically, you know, I was always fascinated about how, you know, a fictional character, you know, could, could ascertain the origin of someone by the tobacco

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ash. And that's really where it really started for me is that and then

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I was in the clubs as well, and I went to a jumble sale, which is basically where people bring their junk that they don't want anymore, and they sell it on.

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And I found a book on police, on scientific policing, scientific and police. I can't exactly remember the title. I've still got it somewhere.

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But I looked at that and it had fingerprints in there. Didn't have DNA. It was too early for DNA. This is, you know, in the late seventies, early eighties. And yeah, so I just got fascinated with the policing side of things, really.

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And that's really where I've wanted to go. And I'm still, still keen and still committed to it, I suppose. Well, you have the I know it's a forensic engineering as, as an area of study and so can you tell me about that.

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Yeah, well basically it's a bit of a long story, but I played for the police, but I didn't have in those days you had to have 20, 20 vision.

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You have perfect vision. And so, I remember going to Weymouth police station in Dorset. I passed all the tests that did everything religiously. The last thing I had to do was read a number plate and index plate and it was 25 yards away and I couldn't read it. And they basically said, turned round to me and said, well, you failed, you can't, you can't join us.

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Sorry. And that's all changed. Now. Obviously, it's changed, and you can wear glasses. And I don't you know; my eyesight wasn’t that bad anyway. But you have to have 2020 vision. And so I basically became an engineer really because I then kind of got interested in actually investigation because my sister, who was a police officer, she told me the experts that come out, engineers and scientists who came out and basically measured up a measure of accident scenes and calculate speeds and that sort of stuff.

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So that's how I ended up on the engineer, I think with Lego and Meccano and things like that. I was always taking things apart anyway, necessarily not to put them back together always, but yeah, I was always taking things apart. So, I think those two things of kind of converged tape and me up in forensic engineering. Ready?

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Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. My mother always reminds me of the time that I was. She said I was jumping off a chair onto on top of the Etch-A-Sketch because I had to see what was inside. I couldn't figure it out. Was drawing stuff with these two dials. So. So let's talk about the sort of the transition into the fire investigation.

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So, I mean, you started did you start as a crime scene investigator then? It was mostly police crime scene investigation or how did that break off later? I mean, it actually started as an accident investigator. So, it worked in 93 when I was still an undergraduate with Hertfordshire Police, and I helped to look at their scientific basis for some of their work around accident investigation and in a word, trying to re science it to make check the science.

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And that was really my project when I was at university, my undergraduate project was to look at that. So, I got the involvement with the police on the engineering side there. Then I ended up in the States for a while as an action investigator in Florida on an internship. Then I came back from the States

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and basically, I went, did my master's degree, and from there

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we had two scenes of crime officers or crime scene investigators

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come

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as part of that course at Cranfield University at the Royal Military College was then it's now the Defense Academy.

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And yeah, so I said, well that's it. That's ideal for me, you know.

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And so yeah, as soon as I graduated, I basically joined Sussex Police originally. Then I went to Surrey Police, I became a CSI,

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and then I worked in Afghanistan for a while doing crime scene investigation, mentoring to

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part of the war on terrorism in Afghanistan.

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And then after that came to an end. That project came to an end.

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about nine months, I joined Dorset police, and I became a crime scene. Senior crime scene investigator, crime scene manager. And as you go off and you do a fire investigation course, but pretty much everyone, a lot of forces use Gardener's Associates, which is in the UK, and that's tripartite.

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So of course, where you work with both scientists, professionals, engineers and also the fire service. So, it's kind of we all work together and that was a fantastic course, really great course. And that really started my master fire investigation career. And

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I find fires fascinate because,

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I mean, crime scenes are unique and they're fascinating in themselves. But when you then got to find forensic evidence in relation to a crime scene,

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but then it's been you know, you've had a full room involvement, you've had flashover, for example.

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You know, all of that

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evidence is potentially damage degraded, etc.. So, it is really for me anyway, I'm only speak for me to be able to challenge from a crime scene point of view to try and recover DNA, to try and recover fingerprints, to get to the origin cause of the fire,

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to establish whether there's a criminal

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offense occurred or not.

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Accidental. You know, it's a real challenge. And I'm that's why I love it. And it's also

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I'm very practical person. I like I like to be digging and I like to be, you know, involved. And so, you'll never going to get away from that. In five. You have to excavate, you have to get down the dirty, if you like, and sort of get in amongst the weeds and you can't shy away from that, you know.

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And I was lucky, I guess in some ways that

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CSI is scenes of crime officers,

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forensic examiners, whatever you want to call them, they sit in ready to pounce. They either love fires or they hate fires. And this I'd say about 80% of them hate fires. So, the other 20% can pick up the pickup the rest.

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If you love fires, then you can pick it up. But some. But yeah, then I cut down along a very long story. I, I then left eventually left Surrey police in

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2019 to work part time for a while, just covering some weekends. But then I became a full-time fire investigator for a private firm, which is ethic forensic investigations.

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So yeah, Lee Maslen and Frank Duffy sort of took me on as a full-time fire investigator. And then I work for the private sector,

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doing some defense work, still seeing some criminal work, but more on the on the on the private side. And then I've been a full-time foreign investigator since then.

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So, I guess for me, like I've never really been involved heavily with fire, but I remember having a memory of a speaking at a conference and there was one gentleman there who spoke, and he was from California. I don't recall his name right now off the top of my head. But at the time he was giving fire investigation, just an absolute bashing, talking about, you know, a lot of and we're going, like I said, back 2010.

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But, you know, talking about a lot of things which were just not, you know, non scientific methods and just, you know, people who are just, I don't know, doing things that were very much old school and not in line with, let's say, sort of the current level and standard that we would hold to today. So, have you seen a big swing or a difference or a change in the way that fire investigations are handled today versus, you know, when you started?

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Yes, certainly. I mean, I think

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it was very much a kind of just go along and see what you could find, see if there was anything really obvious when I first started. But now we're applying the scientific method. NFPA 921 is kind of

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gospel, the Bible reference book, whatever.

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We have to adhere to the extent we don't have to adhere to those times, but they are a guide and applied to scientific methods by investigations.

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Fairly young in terms of forensics, is it really only started in 1985, I think was the first ever technical committee by the FBI,

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and they started looking at things and there have been multiple miscarriages of justice involving fires. William Todd was one example. We got put to death for myth, ready for folklore that's been built up over overpaid of time.

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And there was nothing I would say

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there was nothing malicious about it in the sense of it was just bad practice that I've been taught and taught and taught. And even in the first the first few editions of NFPA 921, there were some things that have actually been proven wrong. You know, the likes of John Harm, who's no longer with us, and John Martini, for example.

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Peter, you know those types of individuals have questions and prove those some of those theories wrong. And I think

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fire is it is incredibly difficult to understand.

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Even people who are dedicated fire scientists are still

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trying to understand the actual full chemical process of it. So, it's quite difficult.

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And then you put into context that you are dealing with, you know, if you're dealing with certainly me, when I started, you know, I'm not a chemist,

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I'm not a fire scientist, I'm not a fire engineer.

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So, you're asking people to understand quite complex

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mechanisms

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and everyone's unique. It all depends upon ventilation effects and how the fire service went in and, you know, the area of origin and, you know, the ignition source, etc., for fuel ignited. So, it's a really complex kind of mix. So, it's taking the time to get to a level, and it certainly is applied across everywhere I've worked.

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But I do recall one job where I, I went to a fire scene and

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it was a guy who had been part of it, the guy that very often if it's a large fire scene, you normally get three or four different fire replicates as you are representing different portions of the building insurance, for example. Contents, insurance, the owner of the building, the landlord, etc., etc..

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So very often we'll work in conjunction with other private fire investigators.

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And this guy was really

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he was just determined. He was looking for evidence to make it an arson. And having spoke to him and trying to understand his background, he was from an arson investigation task force. So, in the States, I mean, he was he was from the states.

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And so, you know, arson investigation, task force, then you are already predisposed and, you know, some of the cognitive bias, know all the biases that are going on. If you kind of 98, probably 80% at the time you get called into a fight scene if you work, for example, the ATF,

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highly specialist, very competent unit, but they do get called in by local law enforcement, state law enforcement to, you know, to investigate difficult or where they think there's a suspicion.

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And so, there is a predisposed kind of, and he certainly had it where he was looking for causes of arson and almost discounting other possible ignition sources, other accidental influences. So, it's still it's still happening, but it's very much almost dying out now with the with the with the new with and I don't count myself in as that new breed.

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But the younger generation, if you like, or automatically just they don't know any different. And so, you know there are some myths and like I gave a lecture I give a lecture on this the fire of education, and you know and

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there are still some about bed springs and crates, glass and things like that were thought to be indicative of, you know, diabolical fire with deliberate fire.

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And that's just that's just not the case is false. Yeah. When I think about all the different types I mean I've walked by or, you know, I've driven by, you know, say a home that's caught on fire or something like that. And I mean, there's not much left over in many cases. So

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I want to ask you about what are some of the complexes, the ease of conducting a fire scene investigation, either because of the just the nature of the scene or the delicate nature, Maybe things could be a dangerous location or like, what are some of the things that might be unique to fire scenes?

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I mean, you obviously get I mean, what's unique about it is it depends on the stage of the fire and how the fires in ventilated.

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it's a ventilation control fire,

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it depends very much on the structure,

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you know whether we're talking

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concrete or whether it's working timber frame buildings, etc., etc.. So, you have to be a real generalist in a lot of ways

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to

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understand a great number of kinds of a little bit about everything, if that makes sense.

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As a fire investigator,

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then you specialize. So, then you would have an electrical engineer if you if you suspected the fire was

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due to an actual lock in

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or then you would call in, you know, you would ask an electrical engineer to look at that and you would interpret that and go with them to investigate that fire.

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But

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I mean, if it gets to flashover, I mean, this is one of the other myths that used to happen called negative corpus, where if you couldn't find the cause of the fire and sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't, you may be able to find the origin, but you can't find the cause or vice versa. You can't really do it vice versa.

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So

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it's basically what used to happen was that if they couldn't find an accidental cause, then it must be

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deliberate fire. And, you know, we just don't do that anymore.

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We go undetermined and in a full when a room gets fully involved, it goes to flashover, and it's allowed to burn for a period of time. You know, something is incredibly difficult to sometimes obviously find the area of origin.

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And then first you ignite and then the cause of the fire. But what helps us a great deal in this day and age is really CCTV footage

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drone footage. People will put up a drone quite early. Everyone's got a mobile phone, you know, everyone's seen as something happens rather than look at it with their own eyes, they're recording it through a phone.

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So, there's an awful lot of social media. I whenever I get appointed for a fire,

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the first thing I'll do is I'll look at the local news sites, I'll look at. And they very often have people's images that are on that have been submitted.

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And so, I try and get those original images because they are very often in the very early stages of the fire, give you smoke plumes, give you patterns of burn and give you areas of origin that you can then obviously tie yourself down to.

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If you've got a kitchen fire, you know, and this is contained, unattended cooking, for example, it's fairly easy to understand, you know, if the job's been left on, for example, there's food products still left in the in the pan itself, etc.. It's very easy to establish the area of origin,

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but you still have to rule out the toaster stuff to rule out other ignite other ignition sources in that regardless of how well it might be.

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But when you get a multi warehouse fire, you know, and where does the fire start? It's very, very difficult. And then if you then add in,

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there may be a person’s report, it might be persons missing. You know, we've got missing people. There may be bodies within that fire. Then know then the priority is really

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body recovery.

00;20;53;14 - 00;21;12;03
Speaker
But at the same time working in conjunction to make sure that we try to find the origin, the cause of the fire so that we understand that from both the fire protection feature, fire protection point of view on the on the fire service side or we look at it, if it was deliberate fire, then we're also looking for a prosecution against those individuals or suspects.

00;21;12;05 - 00;21;33;23
Speaker
Okay, That's one. So, does how does the approach change or is there, for example, like a standard approach when or let's say, a high-level method? So, let's say you're walking into a fire scene at first. What are some of the first things that you are looking at or taking into consideration as part of the investigation? So, what are the first steps you take?

00;21;33;28 - 00;21;51;17
Speaker
Yeah, is fairly standard or it should be fairly standard with the scientific methods trying to recognize the these. We record it. We work from outside to inside. If it's an interior fire, we work from the least amount of damage, the worst amount of damage, that's pretty much standard. And we try and hold it down and we record as we go.

00;21;51;19 - 00;22;21;05
Speaker
I tend to not take a camera in to start with for the first kind of walk through because you only see what's through your lens. If you're taking pictures, you know, you can become very tunnel vision. So I tend to look around, spend about 20 minutes just having a good look around all around the perimeter, as I say, for working from outside to be inside, working towards the area with the most amount of damage, because typically that's obviously where the area of origin is going to be, because the fire is initiated there and then spread outwards from that point.

00;22;21;08 - 00;22;43;20
Speaker
So then once we get to that where we suspect there may be an area of origin, if you've got multiple areas, then you may be looking at deliberate fire, i.e. someone's set fire in one room and then go into another room setting up the fire in another room. But regardless of that, we still record everything that we record every room as we go, regardless of the damage.

00;22;43;26 - 00;23;02;08
Speaker
It's really important to show, in effect, that there isn't damage in one area. As much as it is important to show that there is damage in one area because we have to be able to justify when we go to court to say, you know, this is my finding, this is my opinion. And these are the reasons why be able to provide evidence for that.

00;23;02;08 - 00;23;19;16
Speaker
So, we look at burn patterns, we look at a typical V pattern. The lowest level of burning doesn't always mean that that's where the area of origin, especially if a flashover has occurred. So, you need to understand some fire dynamics. You need to understand how fires are fought in terms of the tactics

00;23;19;16 - 00;23;21;13
Speaker
practices of the fire service,

00;23;21;13 - 00;23;22;26
Speaker
what ventilation effect.

00;23;22;26 - 00;23;26;27
Speaker
If they smash a window early on to ventilate the smoke,

00;23;26;27 - 00;23;31;03
Speaker
then that will change the dynamics of the fire, that will change the burn patterns of the fire.

00;23;31;03 - 00;23;38;07
Speaker
So, we look at things like that. We look at oxidization, you know, where typically where the fires and burning longest. There will be

00;23;38;07 - 00;23;50;01
Speaker
some clean burns potentially, you know above if you if you start a fire in a small wastebasket with paper, it produces pyrolysis that reduces carbon.

00;23;50;07 - 00;24;02;14
Speaker
That carbon is soot. Basically, it's flammable. But where it adjoins to the ceiling because it's been burning, there may well burn that set off. You get a nice clean burn. So that's another one. But I'm making it sound

00;24;02;14 - 00;24;05;29
Speaker
a bit more simplistic. Then I'll be honest with you, it really is.

00;24;05;29 - 00;24;07;03
Speaker
takes sometimes,

00;24;07;03 - 00;24;27;06
Speaker
you know, I've been doing this since 2005, but then very often I often in the first 20 minutes, first hour, maybe I just haven't got a clue, you know, I know where the area damages worth, but that doesn't necessarily always mean that that's the area of origin because fire can spread through ducts and ventilation, etc., etc..

00;24;27;06 - 00;24;27;27
Speaker
So

00;24;27;27 - 00;24;36;07
Speaker
it's a complex beast. It's a complex animal. Ready? And you have to understand multiple factors. And very often

00;24;36;07 - 00;25;04;27
Speaker
it's later on in the day or even the next day, if it's if it's a large fire. The things actually, as you start walking around, things actually start to come together. I had had a job in Ireland once and I won't go into too much detail, but in both of deaths of about 26,000 chickens and it was actually the chickens that kind of started me towards the area of origin because some were completely roasted, had absolutely no feathers on them.

00;25;05;00 - 00;25;24;26
Speaker
And then slowly, as they moved away from the area of origin because they were, so they were free range, but they had sections. They had probably about 20-foot sections along the very long building. And as the fire where the area of origin was, obviously that the chickens unfortunately were almost brushed, it had no feathers on them.

00;25;24;26 - 00;25;43;09
Speaker
And it was actually the chickens. The area that led me to what was the area, what was the cause of the fire in the area. So sometimes it's some bizarre things or plastics melting can give you an indication there's lots of different things that you look for and they all must add up, if that makes sense. You know,

00;25;43;09 - 00;25;52;14
Speaker
But again, you know, if you if you burn a plastic bottle, it's up to the bottle with no water in it, for example, will burn in a very different way than a bottle with water in it.

00;25;52;14 - 00;25;55;11
Speaker
So, you have to be there are no real

00;25;55;11 - 00;26;13;12
Speaker
it's the sum of the whole parts, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Not very. Yeah, but it's the sum of it's the sum of everything. By looking at the burn patterns, by looking at CCTV alarm, fire alarm data, if you can get hold of that very often, even if the data has been destroyed, it's been put up to a cloud or is remote,

00;26;13;12 - 00;26;19;23
Speaker
had a few jobs where it's actually been the fire alarm activations that's allowed me to tracked track of fire

00;26;19;23 - 00;26;23;00
Speaker
where the first one initiates, you know, from the smoke alarms

00;26;23;00 - 00;26;23;25
Speaker
or heat sensors.

00;26;23;25 - 00;26;30;24
Speaker
You know, it gives me a localized area. Okay, well, I was first activated. So let me ask you about

00;26;30;24 - 00;26;50;10
Speaker
the so, for example, there's different Well, I can see different mechanisms, right? So, there may be a big difference between something in a house fire where, you know, just an electrical source that starts or something goes wrong and that burns as opposed to an arson where somebody throws some kind of a liquid fuel or, for example, in the.

00;26;50;12 - 00;26;59;23
Speaker
Well, I want to ask you about the German wings. But, you know, now you have this aircraft that's crashed, and you've got, you know, kerosene or gas or aircraft fuel all over. That's starting to burn.

00;26;59;23 - 00;27;09;07
Speaker
And IEDs, for example, improvised explosive devices, actually, I wanted to ask you about. So, there's IEDs. What are VBIED? Just vehicle borne?

00;27;09;10 - 00;27;30;27
Speaker
Vehicle borne. It was just basically a bomb that's the size of a vehicle. So, on the I worked for the UN on the special tribunal for Lebanon on the assassination of Hariri. And that was kind of one of my first forays into explosives really, and bomb scenes. But that that was actually a Mitsubishi truck that was just full of explosives.

00;27;30;27 - 00;27;31;17
Speaker
So

00;27;31;17 - 00;27;48;24
Speaker
actually, the truck is the mechanism of that container in effect. So, in IEDs, you have certain battery packs, you know, initiate initiating explosive main charge, etc., etc.. And then to contain it to hold it all in in some kind of initiation device, whether it be times remote, etc., etc..

00;27;48;24 - 00;27;49;12
Speaker
So

00;27;49;12 - 00;28;05;23
Speaker
VBI is basically a bomb. That's a vehicle and it's initiated in that in that case, we believe we believe it was initiated by someone actually sat in in the vehicle itself was the Rafik Hariri was the prime minister, ex-prime minister.

00;28;05;26 - 00;28;21;10
Speaker
And he had he was coming from parliament, still a politician and he's coming from parliament that day between the Byblos and St George Hotel in Beirut on the coastal road there and for various different political reasons, he was assassinated. But

00;28;21;10 - 00;28;34;08
Speaker
they, they, they, they basically they knew they knew exactly what he is doing because he was actually that where the VBIED was actually place was between the St George Hotel and the Veloce Hotel, which is pretty much concrete structures.

00;28;34;10 - 00;28;53;19
Speaker
And so that when the blast was initiated, the blast effect actually rebounded and came back in so that it was a perfect for a very professional assassination, for want of a better word, really. So, look, now sometimes do these types of improvised devices, they will just I mean, they'll cause

00;28;53;19 - 00;28;57;16
Speaker
it's sort of the physical expansion of everything that's sort of is damaging.

00;28;57;16 - 00;29;21;06
Speaker
But do they also cause fires? Do they also because they can? Do you tend to get with an explosion or dislocation? It depends on whether you're talking about high explosives or low explosives or a declaration. You know, rapid depravation or a chemical explosion is very different than a military explosion or a high explosion, high explosive event. So, they can cause fires.

00;29;21;06 - 00;29;22;08
Speaker
But that tends to be

00;29;22;08 - 00;29;24;09
Speaker
I've had a few jobs where,

00;29;24;09 - 00;29;41;09
Speaker
know, it's a gas explosion or they can be devastated. It depends on the build up of the gas and whether the fuel air mixture is heavy or lean. Basically, it has to be within a certain upper and lower explosive flammable limits. And basically

00;29;41;09 - 00;29;43;24
Speaker
I've seen it where it just causes a very rapid,

00;29;43;24 - 00;29;46;15
Speaker
what we call flash burn, and it dies back down again.

00;29;46;15 - 00;29;56;00
Speaker
So, you're looking at things like wallpaper that would be slightly burnt or charred tissue paper, very thin thermal materials would be actually damaged. But sometimes,

00;29;56;00 - 00;30;07;22
Speaker
there is, you know, if you look at a gas explosion, typically there's very little actual fire involved because the pressure wave and expect, you know, it doesn't allow the fire to actually take hold or

00;30;07;22 - 00;30;09;00
Speaker
there's not enough

00;30;09;00 - 00;30;14;01
Speaker
fire from flame front to actually initiate materials and keep them burning, if that makes sense.

00;30;14;03 - 00;30;24;17
Speaker
Okay. I'm jumping all around here and I apologize. But you're saying you're saying things that are different. You're saying things that prompted me to think about things. So, you mentioned that like the batteries in the car.

00;30;24;17 - 00;30;31;03
Speaker
but. But what about things like lithium batteries, like other types of batteries? Like they can be dangerous, too, right? Yeah.

00;30;31;03 - 00;30;37;18
Speaker
So, we're seeing more and more. I mean, we're seeing more and more fires caused by lithium batteries. And it tends to be

00;30;37;18 - 00;31;00;12
Speaker
either overcharging. So, most charges, of course, the same connection. So whether you're going to charge that battery, lithium, battery, rechargeable, so say you've got a scooter, knee scooter or you've got a headlight torch, they may well have the same connections, but one might be designed to be charged at nine box and the other one might be designed to charge it at 12 volts.

00;31;00;15 - 00;31;14;20
Speaker
So, if you pump too much voltage in there. Then that can cause what we call a thermal runaway. And so, the thermal runaway can have a catastrophic effect and it can actually cause that each cell. So, if you think about

00;31;14;20 - 00;31;15;23
Speaker
typical

00;31;15;23 - 00;31;24;08
Speaker
electric car that will have thousands and thousands and thousands of individual cells within it, and so you just need one of them to fail.

00;31;24;08 - 00;31;38;28
Speaker
And once one of them fails and goes into thermal runaway, then you know, you've got them off and there's plenty of videos out there If the audience want to look at lithium battery fires, you know, busses, etc., electric busses that are just going off. And the trouble with it is

00;31;38;28 - 00;31;45;26
Speaker
the gas cloud that comes off. It is highly flammable and it's highly toxic and also, it's very difficult to extinguish.

00;31;45;26 - 00;31;46;16
Speaker
So

00;31;46;16 - 00;32;03;23
Speaker
most fire services around the world are looking at having problems with actually extinguishing that type of fire because it doesn't really matter how much water you stick on it. You can put it in a skip. People have been forced to put things in the ship and trying to stop the heat and take the heat away. But

00;32;03;23 - 00;32;08;26
Speaker
then they've removed it and then it starts again because the heat starts to build up again.

00;32;08;26 - 00;32;20;22
Speaker
Damage as well. You know, you had a couple of jobs where people had bought second-hand bikes, electric bikes, etc.. They put them on charge for the first or second time. And there's actually been damage that

00;32;20;22 - 00;32;30;20
Speaker
had one guy who was he was really burnt terribly down. His left leg and his groin area because he as he was, he had an e-cigarette.

00;32;30;22 - 00;32;53;26
Speaker
He had recently charged the battery. So, it's pretty much 80% charge. And as he was actually loading up, which is at Christmas time, as he was loading up the car, he slammed the door of the car shut with his with his hip. And inside his pocket was actually the e-cigarette. And that damage, that shock actually initiated it and made it go into it.

00;32;53;28 - 00;33;04;19
Speaker
So run away. There's a very thin film between the two elements and one that goes to mate. Then you get a massive amount of heat release, you get massive amount of

00;33;04;19 - 00;33;22;03
Speaker
rocket burning, basically. Wow. So yeah, so you have to be really careful with the lithium batteries we see in now as well where they cause a car accident and then they are just they're taking the batteries and they're reselling those batteries from a car that's been in an accident.

00;33;22;04 - 00;33;36;04
Speaker
It doesn't seem to move too much legislation around. But being able to do that and also some not many, but certainly one of my colleagues had a job where with the electricity prices and the gas and the fuel rates going up, certainly in the UK,

00;33;36;04 - 00;33;49;00
Speaker
they're trying they basically were buying rechargeable batteries, trying to solar almost a DIY MacGyver type thing where, you know, they're trying to charge massive amounts of batteries through solar panel.

00;33;49;00 - 00;34;02;01
Speaker
And if you don't know what you're doing and you don't know the origin of those, you get them off the Internet base, you don't know how they've been treated. So, lithium battery fires as it is, is a an increasing

00;34;02;01 - 00;34;11;22
Speaker
ignition source is probably the best way to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess a new and evolving field and now is there but is there a current

00;34;11;22 - 00;34;17;03
Speaker
is there a chemical is there something that you can spray on the lithium battery, a dry powder or some.

00;34;17;03 - 00;34;31;08
Speaker
But not really. It just got a little early know because it's self sustaining, you know it's, it's, it's, I mean you can try and take the heat out of the tetrahedron If I try and remove one of those. But the problem is it because you don't know.

00;34;31;08 - 00;34;41;23
Speaker
Fire services are having incredible problems, and you know there's a new there is one manufacturer I know I can't remember from my head, but they've come up with a solution

00;34;41;23 - 00;34;47;20
Speaker
I think they're going to be that if it if it works, I think it does work.

00;34;47;23 - 00;35;15;01
Speaker
But they're going to they're going to make a lot of money because this is going to be a with the increase in electric cars in the way that we want to, you know, the UK, I think heading for electric too by 2030 or 2050 or something, we're only going to see more and more of these lithium battery fires and they are very difficult to extinguish and they are very much more intense than a normal fire because they just give off a great deal more of they give a lot more flammable gas, which is toxic.

00;35;15;01 - 00;35;37;19
Speaker
And yeah, they're problematic, really problematic. So, someone needs to I've seen lots of bags as well, you know, on flights, etc., etc., you know, but I haven't seen one. I've seen a few that are supposed to work. But how much you seen any of that that do actually work. Yeah. You ever hear on the flights when you're on an aircraft and they tell you, you know, if you drop your phone in between the seat, you know, call somebody over to help you.

00;35;37;19 - 00;35;41;21
Speaker
And yeah, I always thought that was funny. Yeah, interesting.

00;35;41;21 - 00;35;43;27
Speaker
Let me ask you about a couple of the other cases

00;35;43;27 - 00;35;55;26
Speaker
that you had worked on and one of them is the Grenfell Tower Fire. And for those that don't know, this is June 2017 in West London, and it was one of the UK's that is fires in a very long time.

00;35;55;26 - 00;36;24;10
Speaker
I think there were there were over 70 fatalities and I had seen it. I remember seeing the images, you know, on television, on the Internet and stuff like that. And it was absolutely brutal how long this thing burned for. But the loss of life was, I think I guess I couldn't understand why. But what can you tell me about maybe the do we know what the source was, and do we know what happened in that particular case and what came out of that fire?

00;36;24;13 - 00;36;59;05
Speaker
I mean, I was there actually on work. I was working for a laptop, a laptop forensics on the body recovery. So, I didn't have anything to do on the fire investigation side on that on that job. But and I have to be careful because there is an ongoing investigation. So I can really only tell you that what's come out in the public inquiry and what's in the public inquiry is that a very small fire in on the level four started by believed to be there's still some debate but believed to be at the back of a fridge, either electrical connection overheating or capacitor failure maybe,

00;36;59;05 - 00;37;02;16
Speaker
and that fire then spread and was actually contained within

00;37;02;19 - 00;37;28;17
Speaker
within that flat was actually put out by the fire service. Unfortunately, during that period, the window of the kitchen of that flat, basically shattered and the fire spread to the carving on the outside and the cladding was found to be basically it's two sheets of metal with a polyurethane with a type of foam in between for insulation and it was a facade.

00;37;28;17 - 00;37;34;20
Speaker
So, with that, ready for some insulation property, but also to make the building look more attractive basically.

00;37;34;20 - 00;37;48;01
Speaker
And that is what helped to spread the fire and there were lots of gaps within the building, etcetera, etcetera. But there were there were some errors in terms of ceiling, in terms of fire saving between floors, etcetera, etcetera. But

00;37;48;01 - 00;38;04;21
Speaker
this stuff basically became almost when it got to the top, it became a river of plastic on fire and it just flowed from one side of the building to the other side of the building, which is why you get the sort of strange patterns that you see, then how it spreads and basically how the fire spread so, so

00;38;04;21 - 00;38;29;17
Speaker
quickly. But I have to be very clear on that. I was on the body recovery side of that, so I was posting post-fire okay to investigate the fire. It was the was it fairly simple to determine where the fire originated? Yes, it was fairly simple in the sense of two firefighters went in. They recognized where the fire was coming from.

00;38;29;19 - 00;38;33;07
Speaker
They extinguished that fire. But unfortunately, by which time,

00;38;33;07 - 00;39;02;11
Speaker
you know, the fire spread to the outside of the cladding at that point. But there was a whole inquiry. Need. But he was also at the other conference, she was the lead to a review of the fire investigation on that. But yeah, there's plenty of public records around what caused the fire on that and both by both the London Fire Brigade and a number of experts, but I can't remember the guy's name was electrical experts of light goods and appliances.

00;39;02;12 - 00;39;26;22
Speaker
Experts believe it was the back of the fridge. Did you know that? Do you know if there were any changes to protocols or safety standards after that particular. yeah, massively. I mean, some of my colleagues, if I global the firm I worked at before here were solely pretty much just looking at copying, assessing cladding, assessing fire protection, incredibly busy.

00;39;26;22 - 00;39;32;28
Speaker
So, there was there were numerous obviously the terrible loss of life. You know,

00;39;32;28 - 00;39;49;23
Speaker
it was, you know, there were certain floors where, you know, people a number of people had gathered together and lost their life in the same location. So that that was terrible. And but, you know, from a from a fire protection point of view, you know, obviously, you don't want this to happen again, and it shouldn't happen again.

00;39;49;23 - 00;40;15;22
Speaker
It shouldn't have happened in the first place. It from my personal opinion, but, you know, I think, yeah, there was massive changes. There are massive changes assessing every building that's been cluttered with that material or similar materials has been for two full scale tests at the British research establishment, for example, just to try and understand the spread of the fire and how widespread so, so, so, so quickly.

00;40;15;22 - 00;40;38;14
Speaker
And, you know, it's always difficult in a high rise building for the fire service, you know, in terms of the once it spreads up to, you know, above the height that their hoses can go, even if they want to on a ladder, on a on a on a high access platform, you know, you're going to have difficulties. But I think, you know, I don't want to get too much into the whole it's there in the public record.

00;40;38;14 - 00;41;02;09
Speaker
But, you know, the standard protocol ready for forever was to be stay in, stay, stay, stay put. And the fire service will come and rescue you. And that was you know, that wasn't that wasn't the best advice on the night. Ready? I'm afraid all those people lost their lives. So let me let me switch to a completely different type of scene, which was the Germanwings accident.

00;41;02;09 - 00;41;24;02
Speaker
And again, for the benefit of the people here, maybe many of you remember it, it was Germanwings. It was Flight 9525, and it occurred in March 2015. And that one was labeled a deliberate homicide suicide. And it was it was an aircraft en route, an A320 en route from Barcelona to Dusseldorf. It crashed in the French Alps.

00;41;24;02 - 00;41;50;12
Speaker
And I think it killed just about everyone on board. But the sad part about this is that it was the copilot who I don't know what the what happened here, but somehow, he locks the captain out of the cockpit and then intentionally crashed the plane. So, there's obviously fuel fire. But this is a crime scene. And so, what can it what can you tell us about the investigation there and how that was approached?

00;41;50;14 - 00;42;00;21
Speaker
So, the investigation, it tends to be I was working a contract in that time for Canyons International, which are a mass disaster response agency.

00;42;00;21 - 00;42;06;04
Speaker
They've got offices all around the world. So basically, that's the French gendarmes were really

00;42;06;04 - 00;42;16;28
Speaker
dealing with, as they would in any kind of it tends to be canyons tend to undertake the body recovery and the personal effects recovery in

00;42;16;28 - 00;42;20;18
Speaker
developing nations if you don't have that logistics of a capability.

00;42;20;20 - 00;42;48;19
Speaker
So, the French gendarmes and numerous other agencies from around the world undertook the actual physical on the ground investigation. And we were very much there in support in terms of personal effects, in terms of supporting the families that came over. We were all in the same hotel as them and supporting them. And, and yeah, just looking at the continuity of evidence and making sure that we were part of the communication through, etc., etc..

00;42;48;19 - 00;42;53;19
Speaker
So yeah, again, you know, horrific, horrific crime,

00;42;53;19 - 00;42;55;03
Speaker
but

00;42;55;03 - 00;43;00;23
Speaker
yeah, it's, you know, it's something that was, it's something that,

00;43;00;23 - 00;43;16;11
Speaker
you know, I'm kind of I'm proud that I was able to assist and help the families because that's primarily what we were doing really was to help the families to try and gather information as much as possible. And then potentially we were on standby for doing both.

00;43;16;12 - 00;43;26;13
Speaker
They did end up doing personal effects or recovering personal effects. So, the best story I can sort of I've heard about that I it's not one of my cases. It was

00;43;26;13 - 00;43;27;21
Speaker
another family who

00;43;27;21 - 00;43;38;12
Speaker
basically, she had the last thing she wished her son goodbye at the airport. And he had literally he had written something on a she had written something.

00;43;38;14 - 00;44;05;07
Speaker
I think she'd put a lipstick on a napkin. That was they were just having the final meal before and they were able to recover that napkin, you know, because it's amazing what actually survives in those circumstances. And they were able to recover that enough. But for us, it would just be a napkin that would be almost rubbish. But for her, you know, it was the last thing they interacted with and touch.

00;44;05;07 - 00;44;27;14
Speaker
So, things like that have a massive impact in terms of, you know, being a being able to bring closure to people, to give them something to hang on to, you know, personal effects from people's watches, those sorts of things. And obviously these things have to be they have to be clean. They have to be made sure that we're returning the right thing to the right, the right family and that kind of stuff.

00;44;27;14 - 00;44;31;07
Speaker
So personal effects are a big, big thing there. But the gendarme rate,

00;44;31;07 - 00;44;45;29
Speaker
the national police, they've basically dealt with the actual the actual scene itself. So, what in your mind right now are some of the biggest issues or challenges in the field of fire scene investigation?

00;44;45;29 - 00;44;50;06
Speaker
Well, I think the lithium batteries is definitely one that's going to be a big challenge.

00;44;50;06 - 00;44;51;08
Speaker
And how we deal with that

00;44;51;08 - 00;44;58;21
Speaker
I think making sure that we are all singing from the same songbook, if that makes sense, that we are adhering to NFPA 21

00;44;58;21 - 00;45;11;01
Speaker
NFPA 1033, which kind of sets the standards for a fire investigation to have a basic understanding. You can't know everything you know, I'm not I'm not a chemist, I'm not a fire engineer.

00;45;11;03 - 00;45;46;09
Speaker
Electrical engineer will obviously know more about electrics, but you can apply those things to a cross approach for various. But you know, it's really important that you should have a basic understanding of, of, of, of certain things, you know, basic fire signs, basically how fire spreads and some building codes, you know, not so much in UK building regulations in the UK to understand how we should see all around, you know between floors for example and stop the spreading I think are the challenges in the fire service fire investigation world.

00;45;46;12 - 00;46;09;10
Speaker
We've seen quite a few fires in garages and on boats, you know, with electric vehicles, again with the lithium battery cell. So, a whole ship full of electric vehicles has gone down, you know, several times that we had a one at Luton, nothing was Luton Airport, massive carport fire. My old boss dealt with one in Dublin and that can take out an entire structure.

00;46;09;10 - 00;46;38;01
Speaker
So, so it's so damaging because you've got such a high fuel load from the vehicles itself that can actually affect the structure of the of the cement of the concrete. And then you can't really, it's a is the structure that's dangerous therefore, to send out to actually send the robot in, drag the vehicle out. So, it takes a massive amount of effort, resources and cost to actually get to the area of origin of the fire, if you believe it to be that vehicle.

00;46;38;03 - 00;47;18;08
Speaker
But again, I think I think drones as well, drones are a useful tool, but also, they are that you have to be licensed for them. You know, not everyone's got a license. You know, people put up their drones, etc., etc.. So that's an issue. But I think one of the biggest things is on the lower economic social level, you know, if you get an UberEATS, for example, or just Deliveroo, for example, there are obviously other companies and I'm not indicating them specifically, but they will they will employ people who are either doing that as a side hustle or doing that as a side job or, you know, that's their main job.

00;47;18;11 - 00;47;44;25
Speaker
And so, what we're seeing is what we have seen is people will charge their e-bikes, they will charge this electrical equipment in main corridors, you know, main escape routes. And so, if three or four individuals are all living together in the same in the same apartment, for example, the same flat, and they're sharing bedrooms, for example, then they tend to stick their scooters in the hole and they actually charge them in the hole.

00;47;44;25 - 00;47;48;17
Speaker
And if one of them activates one of them goes into run away,

00;47;48;17 - 00;48;15;20
Speaker
then you in effect, you're blocking the access route. And you know, there's plenty of videos out there which will show you that the kind of ferocity of these fires, the ferocity of the actual throttle run away will prevent you from getting past them. You know, it's quite horrendous so that you can we've seen a few deaths through that basically people not being able to get out and as I've said, mentioned that that's a cloud that's coming out that is highly toxic.

00;48;15;23 - 00;48;45;29
Speaker
So, with all these different I mean, there's so many different things here. So I'm trying to think about, you know, if you have to train people like it's fire services or an agency or you want to train a fire investigator to some certain standard, what in your mind are the like the main types of training that they need to get before they're able to sort of get out there and make a fair assessment at a at a scene or something like that.

00;48;45;29 - 00;49;01;29
Speaker
And part second part of that is do you see a lot of disparity between the different types of training that are offered or the level of training that's offered maybe in Europe versus North America or South America or Middle East, something like that? Yeah, I think

00;49;01;29 - 00;49;09;06
Speaker
I think most education institutions will apply the scientific method. I mean, there's the certification.

00;49;09;06 - 00;49;33;19
Speaker
So International Association of Arson Investigators, they offer a certified fire investigation program, which means you go online, you do a CFI training, which is a series of webinars, and you go through them. You have to pass a test at the end of it, and then you have to sit a final exam, etc.. At the end, the National Association of Fire Investigation in the States as well, do a similar program.

00;49;33;19 - 00;49;54;28
Speaker
Certified fire and Explosion investigator In the UK we have the UK RFI. There are various chapters around the world. There's a Gulf Association of Fire investigators here, so there is credit accreditation available and that is really one of the main routes that tends to be, I'll be honest with you, that tends to be more police service and fire service.

00;49;54;28 - 00;50;09;08
Speaker
Orientate it on the private sector side. There are the gardeners investigation course, which is again also private. There's in the UK, there's more and on the marsh, the fire service college, they do a fire investigation course which is very good.

00;50;09;08 - 00;50;29;16
Speaker
Edinburgh University does they're doing a fire engineering course. They also do a specialized module on fire investigation and Cranfield University I, I was module lead there for, for the last few years on the fire investigation module there, the forensic fire engineering module there and also the fire and explosion investigation module.

00;50;29;18 - 00;50;35;00
Speaker
So, there are short courses available. I would say make sure that your courses accredited.

00;50;35;00 - 00;50;53;25
Speaker
We have the UK friendly regulator now as well. So, we are looking at ISO accreditation for those undertaking investigations. So, it's going to be a bit of a wake up call I think to some people and some London Fire Brigades have a dedicated team of investigators, some of the smaller

00;50;53;25 - 00;50;54;18
Speaker
rural

00;50;54;18 - 00;50;59;08
Speaker
fire services that they don't they, they, they, they do fire investigations.

00;50;59;08 - 00;51;02;16
Speaker
So maybe level one or level, there's different levels.

00;51;02;16 - 00;51;26;14
Speaker
But they will they also have a number of hutch. They're not full-time units. So it's going to have to be, I think, adjusted across certainly in the UK and across if the forensic regulator, you know, the methods in the UK which spreads to other European nations, for example, across the world, then I think that's going to be has to be more certification.

00;51;26;14 - 00;51;34;23
Speaker
And the CPD, you know, there's, there's conferences, etc. you can sign up for the CPD next week. I'm actually back in the UK on the John Lentini course,

00;51;34;23 - 00;51;38;02
Speaker
so that's part of my CPD, that's part of my professionalism.

00;51;38;02 - 00;51;46;24
Speaker
But I can't I won't sit, which I'm a member of both National Association and the European chapter in UK.

00;51;46;24 - 00;51;49;29
Speaker
and give an opinion which is which in my view is the best.

00;51;50;02 - 00;51;52;08
Speaker
What I will say is that CFI trainer

00;51;52;08 - 00;52;10;29
Speaker
is really top notch for your education. I, I, you know, you can do an engineering a fire investigation technician there, so you learn the crime scene stuff in bits and pieces on the how to recover, how to package promptly due to evidence, evidence management, that kind of stuff. So, it's a really good program.

00;52;10;29 - 00;52;18;22
Speaker
And, you know, and it's robust. It's a really robust process. The Forensic Science society, they have chartered

00;52;18;22 - 00;52;31;22
Speaker
practitioners, so you can almost see a side. Todd CSI, there are fire ones. There is an investigation that again was a really robust progress application, a test series, interviews

00;52;31;22 - 00;52;37;22
Speaker
the Institute of Fire Engineers as well of a Fire Alpha accreditation for certain levels.

00;52;37;24 - 00;52;41;02
Speaker
So yeah, there is accreditation about I would say

00;52;41;02 - 00;53;00;05
Speaker
as long as you go to you don't pull something off the internet know online course I mean if you it depends on who's providing it if I'm honest with you, if it's Edinburgh University or Dundee University or Cranfield University, if it's within a body with a body that has standards themselves,

00;53;00;05 - 00;53;01;15
Speaker
then I would say, yeah, no problem.

00;53;01;15 - 00;53;03;26
Speaker
But be very wary of

00;53;03;26 - 00;53;21;06
Speaker
just someone advertising it, saying it's got some kind of accreditation from some weird body. Right. You know, by a doctorate these days. Continue that from right. They come in through email you just sign up. I got it. Yeah. Hey, let me take a couple of questions here.

00;53;21;06 - 00;53;23;28
Speaker
Actually. One is from a recent guest of mine, which is Amber.

00;53;23;28 - 00;53;28;11
Speaker
So, thank you, Amber, But great. I didn't ask you about these, but wildfires, for example.

00;53;28;11 - 00;53;36;02
Speaker
Yeah, that they I can see how those can be extremely difficult. A really serious challenge as well.

00;53;36;02 - 00;53;41;16
Speaker
she's asking about to have you done any work in wildfire specific to an accidental fire negligence, for instance,

00;53;41;16 - 00;53;43;25
Speaker
being from the UK, I'm not sure how many wildfires you get.

00;53;43;25 - 00;54;08;18
Speaker
There is a lot of rain. I mean, we do have heat fires, but they tend to be not in any way, shape or form the size of the California dams and other nations, but some now. I mean, wildfires are you have to know your limits, if that makes sense. It's like in any forensic science, in any discipline, there's no point you are being at the EPA analysis, but talking about firearms, there's no point.

00;54;08;22 - 00;54;25;27
Speaker
And it is very much like that within the within the fire investigation world, there are specialists who deal. You know, if you sent me out to a wildfire, you know, hands on hard problem, you wouldn't be able to solve it. I wouldn't have a clue If there are she specialist courses, there are individuals

00;54;25;27 - 00;54;27;15
Speaker
around the world who deal with that.

00;54;27;15 - 00;54;30;13
Speaker
And I think that's only right in the sense of,

00;54;30;13 - 00;54;36;22
Speaker
you know, if they're in those areas. It's about exposure. It's about experience. For me anyway.

00;54;36;22 - 00;54;52;04
Speaker
There's no point in me turning up tomorrow and saying, you know, I can investigate this wildfire because basically I'll be lying, you know, because I have had not, I've not had no training, I've had no experience in wildfires to any great degree.

00;54;52;06 - 00;55;21;26
Speaker
And so, it's better left to those specialists who should know your limits. Ready. And so, yeah, no, I haven't had any involvement. Okay. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. There is a you know, there are there are techniques. There are methods to actually find the area of origin. And, you know, the guys who do that, really clever guys and they, you know, it's a bit like tracking and you know, you can look at certain branches and how they burn and, you know, wind directions, that kind of stuff, you know, clever stuff, but not something I do.

00;55;21;28 - 00;55;35;19
Speaker
Let me take another question. Yeah. So, this one is from Yvette, and she's saying, in the absence of an eyewitness at the site of the fire, what is the timeline for distinguishing between a naturally occurring or accidental fire and one that's deliberately set as an act of chemical terrorism?

00;55;35;19 - 00;55;40;25
Speaker
So, what is the timeline? I mean, the timeline, I guess, is however long it takes,

00;55;40;25 - 00;55;41;23
Speaker
basically.

00;55;41;26 - 00;55;45;08
Speaker
I mean, there's no rushing to conclusions. You have to take into

00;55;45;08 - 00;55;47;17
Speaker
account that the entire picture of the scene,

00;55;47;17 - 00;55;57;23
Speaker
if there isn't any eyewitness said, then, you know, you're looking for things like multiple sheets of fire. You're looking for, you know, insurance fraud and that kind of stuff,

00;55;57;23 - 00;56;01;08
Speaker
People will often prop open doors. I had a hotel once where

00;56;01;08 - 00;56;05;03
Speaker
every door in the hotel had been propped open with a mattress.

00;56;05;05 - 00;56;07;03
Speaker
And so that helps to spread the fire.

00;56;07;03 - 00;56;12;05
Speaker
So, yeah, you're looking and also you use the facilities there. So, if you have a K-9 available,

00;56;12;05 - 00;56;13;20
Speaker
asset, a dog

00;56;13;20 - 00;56;19;00
Speaker
not liquid dogs. You know, they're training centers. When you go to the airport to train for drugs, we have

00;56;19;00 - 00;56;23;21
Speaker
canine assets which are basically ignite liquid dogs who you put through the fire scene.

00;56;23;21 - 00;56;41;19
Speaker
If they indicate that as intelligence is not evidence, but it's intelligence so that there is no real time frame. I mean, I've been a job where I've been at job for, I'd say minimum, I would spend a job as it is, probably six, 6 to 8 hours, you know, to get a good because it takes you that long.

00;56;41;19 - 00;57;01;13
Speaker
If it's a small fire, if you're talking about a large fire in a commercial unit, you know, you could be there for a week, you could be there for longer. And often, I mean, I was thinking about one job I did in Northern Ireland where we did three or four days. We had three or four days away to gather more evidence, to gather facts, to wait for data to come in.

00;57;01;13 - 00;57;21;19
Speaker
Then we went back to joint again and a colleague of mine, Jeff, I know he's on a he's on a big Marine fire, a lateral lithium battery fire again, I think on a on a ship. And I know he's gone back three or four times to do that. So, you kind of gather the information that's available for other information you might have to download.

00;57;21;19 - 00;57;41;15
Speaker
You might have to get interpreted. So, for example, if you've got sprinkler alarm data or fire alarm data, a burglar alarm data, you might not have the skill set to actually be able to interpret that. And you need to speak to the fire protection engineer or the burglar alarm specialist or the company themselves to say, Right, what does this code mean in that code?

00;57;41;21 - 00;58;05;08
Speaker
You know, AC three, that means that that door was opened at this time, you know, and three, 3 minutes later, you know, eight, eight, nine, five. That code means that there's a fire in this area in zone one. So, you able to track that. But that doesn't always and always available on the day because we tend to try, and we want to get to the fire scene as soon as it's well and preferably as soon as possible.

00;58;05;08 - 00;58;26;15
Speaker
You know, sometimes not when it's still burning because there's a risk there. But I remember another big job I had where it was in a big agricultural storage facility and every time, they moved the corn, etc., because there was so much residual heat today, it would actually ignite again. So, we had the fire service back about four or five times just to try and put it out.

00;58;26;15 - 00;58;47;17
Speaker
So, you want to be there as soon as possible to gather as much of a control of the scene from a criminal point of view, the cordon and control and protecting the access to that fire season, especially if there's an if there's a fatality there. You want the scene seal that down, secure that scene as soon as possible so you protect the evidence of contamination, etc..

00;58;47;19 - 00;59;05;19
Speaker
I mean, obviously with fire services, it's a problem because. Well, there was actually just this morning coming in, there was a fire yesterday on the I think it was on the East end where it was on the east end of Toronto, where some people died. But if you can imagine here right, it's well below freezing. I mean, it's like, you know, negative ten, negative eight or whatever.

00;59;05;19 - 00;59;27;17
Speaker
And so, I'm thinking about, you know, here's you're spraying water on this fire and now everything's going to be freezing and it's coated in ice. And so, the conditions that you have to work in and how well that evidence is preserved is obviously going to be a big factor. You know, if everything's since a collapsing and on top of each other, it's going to be a heck of a puzzle to try and figure out.

00;59;27;17 - 00;59;28;21
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense.

00;59;28;21 - 00;59;49;18
Speaker
We've got another question here. And well, I like this question because it leads right into our symposium for next week. Do you have any tips on photographing fire scenes? I have worked a few as a CSI, but not enough to get good practice with lighting settings and such. Thank you. Sure. I mean, I think I mean, I've come from an era where it's still wet film and prior to digital.

00;59;49;20 - 01;00;11;15
Speaker
So, you didn't know what photograph you took until the day after, in fact, when the roll of film was developed. But I think the top tips really for five estimation photography is you can paint with light, you can use flash techniques, you have to have a tripod, you can have handheld up to a certain speed, but you need a really decent flash on the top.

01;00;11;18 - 01;00;32;10
Speaker
You get different, difficult lighting because sometimes areas will be completely obviously in a fossa and everything's black is covered and there's no electrics. You might need to you can use a light even focusing with the camera. The camera needs a certain amount of light to actually autofocus the view. And it's very difficult manual because you're covered in debris.

01;00;32;13 - 01;00;52;22
Speaker
Everything is black and shutter. You're trying to protect your equipment as well. So yeah, so tripod, use your techniques to, you know, painting by light so you can actually put the camera on bulb and actually open up the shutter and just pop, pop, pop with a flash or actually paint the whole scene with a torch. That's another technique.

01;00;52;29 - 01;01;14;11
Speaker
We'll just leave it for, you know, put it on bulb and leave it for a minute and a half. You to see what like you've got. And you can literally make it look like daylight, you know, just expose it for a longer time with digital. Don't always try and underexposed rather than overexposed because if you if you if you overexpose, you're basically burn you basically overexposed in the chips on there.

01;01;14;11 - 01;01;36;00
Speaker
And you can't really recover that if you underexposed. And obviously with the software you can make that photograph better. I'd say focus is the most important thing because without focus, the whole point of the photography is wasted on get yourself. I always have a backup camera. So is I have a point and click. That's usually an Olympus.

01;01;36;00 - 01;02;10;03
Speaker
And it's a really, it's great at macro photography. So, I thought you find some beading, some electrical shock, etc. I can go really, really close up on that. But I also have an SLR because that allows me to play. It allows me we used to do things like bracketing. There's a practicing feature on kind of when it comes, you can break it if you're not percent sure, but I would say with digital photography now much different than having to change the roll every 33 as we used to do, You know, just don't be afraid to fly and don't be afraid to take more photographs and achieve the result you're looking at.

01;02;10;06 - 01;02;35;19
Speaker
And I love the fact that the last time I had had the spin round and flexible because then you can type pictures at different angles. I also have a massive expense extendable tripod and an app on my phone that so if you can't get to somewhere then you can put it on the tripod, you can put it up high, get it to different angles and it's really great wide angle.

01;02;35;19 - 01;03;03;17
Speaker
I mean, I'm going on and on what wide angle lens, you know, to capture everything and then different lenses to, to get down close and obviously macro lenses for that type of thing. And also, I carry a I carry a little a GoPro because if you're looking for things inside items, we had a fire in a big piece of machinery and it's just impossible for you to get in there, but it's not impossible to get a little GoPro in there.

01;03;03;24 - 01;03;27;19
Speaker
Actually, take a video, you know, you've got the three axes kind of tilt, anti shape and that kind of stuff. Just make sure that you really know your craft. Really your cameras and don't be afraid to use gadgets. I love gadgets. And my little GoPro on an extendable stick is as far as used has been fantastic You know numerous, and they tend to come with a little remote control as well.

01;03;27;19 - 01;03;46;14
Speaker
So, you can you know, you can press record and press stop, take still photographs, etc. Next, as I tell you, my course is that Iran is, you know, focus, focus, focus is the first thing because without focus, you just wasting your time and never enough time. Yeah. So, make your teaching. You got a lot of things going on.

01;03;46;14 - 01;04;18;11
Speaker
What is what's coming up for you next? Like what kinds of things are you focusing on from here forward? I mean, we're focusing on building crime scene investigation courses for investigation courses here in the Middle East. We're looking at basically being able to try and expand our network within our university to offer research where we're going to be the research questions we're going to be doing by further training for both internal and external split with the president's authority.

01;04;18;11 - 01;04;39;24
Speaker
Here, we're looking at a new emphasis in crime scene and fighting investigation. And yeah, for me personally, you know, consultancy wise, trying to get some cold case trying to do out in the about on the ground with the actual team my keep my hand and keep my CPD up We've got the fire symposium on Monday so I'm really looking forward to that.

01;04;39;24 - 01;05;04;29
Speaker
Some fascinating topics on that. I'm really genuinely excited to look at and view. And then there's also a new project of mine is CSI on Fire, which is, you know, I'm I've been doing this since 2005 and doing it full time since 2019. But I very often feel like I want to learn this guy's outlet. I've been doing this for 30, 40 years.

01;05;05;01 - 01;05;45;14
Speaker
And the knowledge, you know, some of my employees, their knowledge is phenomenal. And I want to quite selfishly set up this podcast in a way to gain that education and to gain that knowledge as soon as possible. And the podcast is a fantastic way I think, of doing that in that I've invited guests on. It's fairly informal, very much like we're doing now and we're going to be talking about it's open to all its own private fire investigation, to public pharmacist case academics who are on the fire engineering side, on the fire investigation side, on the academia side, on the research side, it's open to students, people who want to get into fire investigation.

01;05;45;17 - 01;06;13;27
Speaker
People are made mid-career. I mean, very often some of the larger firms will take you if you've got a specialism mid-career. So yeah, so that's really the new the new project for me is See US on Fire. Wanted to do it for about a year and so bit the bullet and trying to get it up and running. So, I've got my hopefully it'll be out the first couple will be out by the end of January early February.

01;06;13;27 - 01;06;25;07
Speaker
So please listen in. Some can show everyone if you have a topic, if you have something to say, I'm more than happy to go to the website. WW CSI on fire dot com.

01;06;25;07 - 01;06;35;06
Speaker
Just put in your details and if you want to come on, we're going to have some big names always some big people well known within the farm association but also some side areas like

01;06;35;06 - 01;06;40;00
Speaker
know bodies and fires, some sort of bleak, you know, health and safety.

01;06;40;00 - 01;07;00;26
Speaker
We can have some topics. We can have an international series as well. So, it's not just UK centric or Americans centric. It's going to be I'm hoping it's going to be, you know, a global podcast. So, we you know, so that we understand how they do it in South America. We understand that they do it in India. And if there's any common skills and common things that we can do and how to improve it.

01;07;00;26 - 01;07;21;28
Speaker
But, you know, as I said quite selfishly, I'm trying to learn and everyone else on hopefully along for the ride as well. So yeah definitely. Well, I know what podcasting is like now, so it's a lot of fun. It's great. It's a wonderful way to learn from other people and your peers and things like that. So yeah, I wish you all the best of luck with that.

01;07;22;00 - 01;07;44;16
Speaker
Mike, do you mind if I share your LinkedIn profile? No, not. Not so. Okay, here we go. Here. So here we go. So, this is Mike. Folks, if you want to get in touch with him, you know, he's obviously very experienced, very knowledgeable. And I'm sure if any of you have questions or a few questions here, but if you'd like to get in contact with him, this would be a great way to do it, just through LinkedIn and yeah, Mike, look, thank you so much.

01;07;44;16 - 01;07;59;22
Speaker
I really appreciate your time. It was a pleasure speaking to you. It's a pleasure meeting you and I hope to keep in touch. I know you got a lot of cool things going on, and when I have some fire questions, know where to go now? Yeah, sure. I mean, if I don't know the answer, I'm sure I do know someone who does know the answer.

01;07;59;22 - 01;08;00;12
Speaker
So

01;08;00;12 - 01;08;12;04
Speaker
I can help in any way to your audience or potentially my audience, then you know, don't hesitate to contact me. I'm more than happy to give you advice. Will point in the right direction if I don't have an excellent

01;08;12;04 - 01;08;13;22
Speaker
Thanks again. Just cheers,

01;08;13;22 - 01;08;18;08
Speaker
hey, everyone, all the best. I wish you a happy Thursday and we shall see you soon. Bye bye.