EP 98 | Mark Davison | Investigating Sandy Hook

I am honored to feature Lt. Col. Mark Davison of the Connecticut State Police in our next episode of Forensics Talks. With 17 years of service, primarily in Major Crime, Mark brings an in-depth perspective on the forensic investigation of the Sandy Hook school shooting that occurred on December 14, 2012. This tragic event shook the nation, and through Mark's expertise, we'll gain understanding into the complex process of investigating such a devastating incident. Join us for this profound discussion on the challenges and insights derived from the forensic examination of one of the most heartrending episodes in recent history.

Originally aired on: Feb 8, 2024

Transcript

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Hey, everybody, it's Eugene here. And welcome to Forensics Talks. This is going to be episode 98, and my guest today is Mark Davidson.

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and Mark Davison is a 17-year veteran with the Connecticut State Police. And he's currently holding the rank of lieutenant colonel.

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he's served the majority of his career in major crime, primarily as a crime scene detective and supervisor.

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following promotion to the tenant, he commanded the troop L barracks, the training academy, and the state's Western District, and he's currently the commander of the Office of Administrative Services. Mark holds a certification from the I in Bloodstain Pattern Analysis and actively assists with BPA in shooting reconstruction casework. He starts several training courses on BPA shooting, reconstruction, and crime scene investigation.

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He holds a Bachelor degree in Systems Engineering from the US Naval Academy, and a master's in forensic science from the University of New Haven.

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he's been an adjunct instructor at the University of New Haven for the past eight years, teaching a variety of courses in the forensic science department. And he's also taught as a joint,

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at Central Connecticut State University and served for eight years as an officer in the in the United States Marine Corps.

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Now, I think I first met Mark at an IB,

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IPA conference that's the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts in Portland, Maine. That's kind of where I first remember him,

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from some time back. But,

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last year,

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Mark did a presentation at the Association for Crime Scene Reconstruction and in fact, were,

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there's another meeting for that next week.

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So,

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next week I'll be in Texas at the Association for Crime Scene Reconstruction, or ASR, and,

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but that's where I first

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saw Mark's presentation on the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. And,

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it really struck me as a very honest and open presentation. And there were a lot of really interesting things that,

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came out of that, at least for me.

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And what was what really sort of got my interest was later on,

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I was at another conference,

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in October, and I actually just last October 2023, and this was just, shortly after the shooting that happened in Maine and many of you might remember that one, but there were a number of officers there, and we were having a very interesting conversation about sort of what happened.

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these are people that were actively on duty at the time, and a lot of the same issues that came up during my conversation with them,

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was exactly what market highlighted in his presentation. And so, I think at that, after that time, I said, you know what? I really got to get Mark on here to talk. So,

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just before I get Mark in here, I'll just do a very, very brief summary of the Sandy hook.

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the school shooting. And so, this occurred on December 14th, 2012. And this is in Newtown, Connecticut.

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it was one of the deadliest shootings in the United States history. And on that morning, there was a 20-year-old man who fatally shot 20 children aged between 6 and 7 years old, as well as adult staff members. And I think there were six adult staff members that were shot,

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before going to the school.

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the,

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the shooter shot and killed his mother at their home. And,

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upon arriving at Sandy hook Elementary,

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he entered the building by shooting through a locked glass door and at the front entrance,

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he was armed with a semiautomatic rifle and two handguns. And as he moved through the, the first,

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grade classrooms,

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he that's sort of where he committed the mass shooting.

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Then eventually, he took his own life,

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with one of the handguns as,

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you know, law enforcement officers were arriving at the scene, and, you know, the whole incident lasted, you know, roughly, you know, 11 minutes from the time the shooter entered the school until the end of his life. And,

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many of you will remember this as a very, very,

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shocking and just a very big,

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story that made the news.

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it just affected a lot of people. And,

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was a really, really,

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eye opening event for,

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many. Now,

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I'm going to bring Mark in here. So just give me a second.

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let me get him back. And there he is. Hey, Mark. How are you doing? Hey, Eugene. How's it going? Good. Thank you so much.

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Yeah. Thanks for patience back there.

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yeah.

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I was thinking it was the IAP where we first met in Portland. Yeah, yeah. 2014. That was,

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that was it. Okay. I'm trying to remember what year was, but he knew it. Well, so we're getting on to ten years. My phone. Yeah. That's right

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from Miami.

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well, we're going to get into the whole Sandy hook thing, but let me just ask you a little bit, regarding yourself, I saw that, you know, you were in the Marine Corps and stuff like that.

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So, when,

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I like going back in time. Even before then. Like when little Mark was being. You were a little kid running around, like, do you have,

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was your family already in law enforcement and army and stuff like that? Like, did you know that this is going to be your career path?

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no. No, that was,

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I guess it kind of materialized as,

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as I grew up.

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I mean, my dad, my dad was in the Navy.

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and I don't know that that really had, too much of an effect on me,

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as a as a younger person. But,

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I mean, really, as I started applying to colleges,

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to me, you know, one look like the next until I got to the Naval Academy,

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I was I was a wrestler in high school.

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I was recruited for wrestling a bit.

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went down there for a visit, and,

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that that environment,

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struck me as, like, this is the place that suited for me. So, I kind of went from there. I never wanted to drive a ship for a living.

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so hence the Marine Corps,

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and,

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you know, things kind of went from there.

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So right on.

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then,

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tell me about the systems engineering thing. I didn't that was a new one for me. So, what was your plan there?

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I mean,

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you know, ultimately, ultimately, my plan at the Naval Academy was to,

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become commissioned as a marine officer.

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you know,

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obviously, education is very important.

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I'd always been interested in, in math and science.

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my dad was a mechanical engineer, so there was likely some influence there.

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and so, you know, as you matriculate as,

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freshmen or apply that at the Naval Academy,

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kind of fishing around for, for where you want to end up. I mean, there's a lot of technical majors there. The two thirds of them are technical.

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and so that was kind of the track I embarked on. Okay. And at the,

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so, at the, at the state police were the Connecticut State Police. Right now, you sort of

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have you had sort of many different roles, like what was your journey through there, like where you started and then sort of the journey you took up to now?

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Yeah,

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ultimately there. So, I mean, every trooper,

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here starts on patrol.

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I worked out of the, out of the barracks at troop G, which is in Bridgeport,

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which is pretty much patrol in,

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southwestern Connecticut on 95.

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so, I was there for three years. I kind of my, my, my goal relative to the state police was,

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become a detective in Major Crimes.

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so ultimately,

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after around three years, took a test.

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so, street detective for a short time, and then,

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went over to the crime scene unit and kind of fell in love with the forensic aspect of,

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that type of work, so that that part wasn't really on my radar.

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but my previous sergeant,

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was the sergeant of the crime scene unit, and,

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invited me along on a couple of calls.

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and it turned out that, you know, that work I really, I really loved,

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so, I did. I was at major crime for

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for nine years.

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crime scene detective for two. Went over to become a sergeant of the Criminal Investigative unit,

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at the troop I was at for two years. And then back to the crime scene unit as a sergeant,

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where I stayed for,

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until I got promoted to lieutenant.

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and then kind of upwards from there. Okay. And then,

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like the, like, when did you first start doing some of your training, like, for example, in bloodstain pattern analysis in the shooting reconstruction stuff? Yeah. I mean, really the, the, you know, so the,

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our, our just,

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our, our crime scene unit,

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and I guess for the audience too.

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So, the state of Connecticut, we kind of divide in thirds for the state police vertically.

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there's three districts here West, central and east.

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each of those districts, there's 11 troops,

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give or take. They have four, three and four as we kind of move, west to east across the state.

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and each of each of those districts has a crime scene unit.

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So,

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you know, as a result of that work, we're strictly processing crime scenes,

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some for the state police and some for local PD's that may have a detective bureau,

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and not a crime scene unit or may not have any detectives at all. And,

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you know, we support them by processing their scene. So,

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you know, the exposure to,

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bloodstain scenes started there and really, kind of elevated when I went to, to graduate school at the University of New Haven,

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and started doing research there relative to VPA and then, you know, pretty much 2014 on I've been kind of focused on that and the shooting reconstruction

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aspects of, of investigation and forensic science. Okay. So, hold on. So, 2014. So, when I around the time when I first met you, was that when you were starting at New Haven?

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just had finished there. I just finished, okay. Yeah. 2012. I started 2011 end of 2011. I started at New Haven. Okay, okay. Kind of wrapping up there.

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And so, the teaching that you like in, like in your bio is reading like some of the teaching that you're doing, that's like internal with your, your team or do you do it for other

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agencies as well as the university? Yeah, the university is

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university work and then internally internal training here with the state police, it's for the state police or other local PD.

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So, we, we kind of bring in a mix of,

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mix of detectives to, to some of these different trainings that we're able to able to hold here. So. Okay. All right. Well, let's,

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let's move on to,

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the subject at hand here, the whole Sandy hook thing.

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that was obviously,

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something that made, I would say world news.

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It was a big deal.

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it was very tragic. And everything else. And, you know, I kind of just want to let you talk about,

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you kind of like you did in your presentation, which was just sort of how things began and for you at the time,

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you know, what was your day like that day?

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And, you know, just the first bits of information, how they were coming through and how everything sorts of fit together. Yeah. And, yeah, ultimately and with, I guess, with this topic,

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you know, a lot of the, I would say core group here, but,

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kind of the people that were there were intimately, intimately involved.

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with the incident or, you know, or,

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I think a lot of times reticent to,

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I guess, to discuss it.

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Right.

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and we've. Yeah.

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this is probably the third, third time.

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you know that I've talked semi publicly or publicly in this case,

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and a lot of our, our discussion is internally and to, to other audiences is, is, is really focused on learning lessons from it.

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you know, one, because that information is vital to help save lives for,

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police officers that are responding or,

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you know, and then further, just relative to lessons learned, you know, in some aspects about the investigation,

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the investigative piece.

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and then really also to and maybe to some degree, more importantly,

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the mental health aspect to it or the aftermath of, of the incident,

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from the, from the law enforcement side. So,

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you know, you know, that said,

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and, you know, in this forum details,

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likely I'm going to keep to a minimum, but,

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yeah.

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So, I mean, I worked in Litchfield at the at the time or on that day,

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which we so we're talking about the western third of the state here, Newtown or Sandy hook.

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you know, that's a, I guess, a subsidiary of Newtown. That's the town, where it occurred.

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is,

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kind of the,

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southwestern part of that,

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of the of the state,

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Litchfield is maybe 35 minutes or so north of that.

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So, it was it was early morning, 9:00.

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was essentially the, when 911 calls started going out to the PD,

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some of those calls rolled over to the state police. So around that time period,

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you know, we were kind of alerted, particularly the true,

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in Southbury trouvé, which that's their area,

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you know, and people began responding from there.

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So, my lieutenant,

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ultimately

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called me on the on the phone. I was,

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you know, in my office. I was a sergeant at the time.

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and I supervised the criminal investigative unit,

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a bit of that through Bell.

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so, a group of street detectives, essentially there.

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so, at any rate, that that was the call.

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It was really it was shocking,

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really to,

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to hear took a little bit of time to, like, kind of process that,

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and I don't mean minutes, but,

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you know, it was that there was some processing that needed to happen there. And then,

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you know, we were lights and siren down to down to Newtown from there.

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you know, it was really, really down there was a I mean, it was an overwhelming response of law enforcement. I think,

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you kind of don't realize or I didn't really maybe until that time. How many law enforcement,

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people from all different agencies, local, state, federal, any number of federal agencies are up and about and around.

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you know, there was hundreds of,

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of law enforcement,

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response there. So, you know, ultimately by the by the time, you know, by the time we got down there, the incident was over.

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and,

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you know, our, our ESU or our Swat team was in the process of, of clearing the school,

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and going through those motions.

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And, you know, us from major crime,

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ultimately began to make a plan in order to,

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you know, execute our, our portion of the,

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of the of the, of the investigation. So that's kind of the,

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I guess the ideology of how we or how I ended up down there. Okay. And so let me ask you, Mark.

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So, when that when the call, like when the call first came in,

00;13;42;24 - 00;13;51;01
Speaker
from the school, like, were there, were there multiple callers from the school calling all at the same time, like the teachers, the principal like whoever?

00;13;51;01 - 00;13;51;24
Speaker
calling in,

00;13;51;24 - 00;14;00;05
Speaker
and like, is there just like a flood of information coming in all of a sudden, or was it was it fairly broken apart to start with and then maybe more coming in later?

00;14;00;11 - 00;14;03;03
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. I mean, there were several calls,

00;14;03;03 - 00;14;04;03
Speaker
from the school. Not

00;14;04;03 - 00;14;05;13
Speaker
not an overwhelming amount.

00;14;05;13 - 00;14;08;09
Speaker
from what I recall from the investigative part.

00;14;08;09 - 00;14;08;24
Speaker
and,

00;14;08;24 - 00;14;20;20
Speaker
so, you know, it was that information that was coming in, but, you know, the, you know, this is an important part to for, you know, for the dispatch side of it because they're, they're the, the focal point right now of,

00;14;20;20 - 00;14;22;16
Speaker
of any incident that's, that's coming in.

00;14;22;16 - 00;14;26;29
Speaker
So, you know, how they take in information and what questions are asked,

00;14;26;29 - 00;14;30;10
Speaker
and all that information, which they're, they're all very good at,

00;14;30;10 - 00;14;35;18
Speaker
doing, but, you know, all that's important relative to, expedition of response,

00;14;35;18 - 00;14;38;12
Speaker
where people are going to tactically deploy and,

00;14;38;12 - 00;14;42;17
Speaker
so, you know, we Newtown PD was receiving those calls.

00;14;42;17 - 00;15;02;24
Speaker
A lot of times cell phone calls will roll over to the to the state police. so, so troop in trouble started getting some calls to a relative to that. So okay, so when you arrive, I mean, there's obviously there's got to be, you know, paramedics there may be fire, there may be Swat teams, there may be like all, you know, different troops, different,

00;15;02;24 - 00;15;03;22
Speaker
things going on.

00;15;03;22 - 00;15;04;13
Speaker
So,

00;15;04;13 - 00;15;22;10
Speaker
is it a little bit of confusion or is it a little bit of, you know, communication and, and everything else, you know, trying to keep everything straight at that point? like what's the communication like at that point? Yeah. I mean, ultimately, yeah, it's, I mean, and this is one of the one of these where, you know, we say, you know, this is

00;15;22;10 - 00;15;23;20
Speaker
part of our lessons learned part.

00;15;23;20 - 00;15;26;29
Speaker
Like, are you prepared to, to respond to this? Right.

00;15;26;29 - 00;15;34;21
Speaker
and the answer is probably for every agency. You're not you're not right. In some sense. You are. You know, training is adapted and evolved.

00;15;34;21 - 00;15;39;14
Speaker
but, you know, all of these, they're the same, but they're very vastly different.

00;15;39;14 - 00;15;42;13
Speaker
so, at any rate, you know, here,

00;15;42;13 - 00;15;42;21
Speaker
yeah.

00;15;42;21 - 00;15;48;21
Speaker
I mean, it's a chaotic type of response. But, you know, the initial, the initial responding officers,

00;15;48;21 - 00;15;50;15
Speaker
and, you know, we've been trained in,

00;15;50;15 - 00;15;51;21
Speaker
in active shooter,

00;15;51;21 - 00;15;55;08
Speaker
investigations, but really in, in response,

00;15;55;08 - 00;16;01;15
Speaker
so that, you know, the initial the initial responding Newtown police officers and, and state police from, from trouvé,

00;16;01;15 - 00;16;06;19
Speaker
are going through the process of, of entering the school and clearing it by the time we got there.

00;16;06;19 - 00;16;12;25
Speaker
And this is a, you know, a like a tactical lesson. But so, we don't have a map up here, but,

00;16;12;25 - 00;16;20;12
Speaker
the school as well just say it's like down the end of a cul de sac. So, there's a long driveway, there's a fire department when you pull in,

00;16;20;12 - 00;16;24;19
Speaker
on the, on the left-hand side and there's a quarter mile road that goes down to the school.

00;16;24;25 - 00;16;28;01
Speaker
So, with the flood of responding vehicles,

00;16;28;01 - 00;16;29;26
Speaker
that roadway was, was clogged.

00;16;29;26 - 00;16;33;22
Speaker
so, if people are getting in, you know, stop in their car getting out of their car,

00;16;33;22 - 00;16;37;27
Speaker
running down the road. What if they're a Swat person or somebody else that's responding?

00;16;37;27 - 00;16;46;29
Speaker
you know, the roadway was clogged, so, you know, ultimately, one of the takeaways just from that aspect of it was, and, you know, this is easier said than done, right?

00;16;47;02 - 00;16;47;29
Speaker
now, but,

00;16;47;29 - 00;16;50;03
Speaker
you know, keep a clear roadway. So,

00;16;50;03 - 00;16;57;00
Speaker
you know, if we, we can have ambulances, ingress and egress, which ultimately, they were able to do.

00;16;57;00 - 00;17;05;17
Speaker
you know, the unfortunate part of that was there was not really much egress from there. So, yeah. But yeah, a lot of,

00;17;05;17 - 00;17;10;22
Speaker
you know, the, the initial, you know, the initial part there.

00;17;10;25 - 00;17;16;16
Speaker
and then ultimately, like law enforcement response here, you have Newtown, you have state police were on different radios.

00;17;16;16 - 00;17;18;26
Speaker
but the people that are there are communicating,

00;17;18;26 - 00;17;23;28
Speaker
you know, and then back up. So, there's always going to be some friction. It's the fog of war, essentially. Right.

00;17;23;28 - 00;17;27;03
Speaker
relative to that. And you just have to adapt to that and overcome,

00;17;27;03 - 00;17;30;03
Speaker
but ultimately communications,

00;17;30;03 - 00;17;33;00
Speaker
you know, on how people are clearing the building.

00;17;33;02 - 00;17;34;25
Speaker
and up to upper command,

00;17;34;25 - 00;17;39;29
Speaker
relative to, to what they see or what is going on inside,

00;17;39;29 - 00;17;44;14
Speaker
is important because those again, tactical decisions are going to need to be,

00;17;44;14 - 00;17;48;14
Speaker
need to be made at an elevated level sometimes. So, if they don't have the right information,

00;17;48;14 - 00;17;51;00
Speaker
you know, it's hard to execute some of those decisions.

00;17;51;03 - 00;17;52;18
Speaker
Okay. So,

00;17;52;18 - 00;17;55;26
Speaker
after some time, like while you were there, whatever did,

00;17;55;26 - 00;17;56;08
Speaker
like

00;17;56;08 - 00;18;10;24
Speaker
your maybe you can just clarify this for me, but what are your, what were your responsibilities at during that time and were there I mean, were there any other responsibilities laid upon you while you were there, like you were assigned to do other things, maybe that you didn't expect?

00;18;10;26 - 00;18;15;06
Speaker
yeah. So ultimately there, since I was the, the sergeant,

00;18;15;06 - 00;18;16;29
Speaker
criminal investigative sergeant,

00;18;16;29 - 00;18;25;19
Speaker
my, my counterpart who was the I was at l he was at a in Southbury. So, like ultimately it was it was their, their case to, to handle.

00;18;25;19 - 00;18;27;12
Speaker
I worked with him for a long time.

00;18;27;12 - 00;18;29;26
Speaker
we, we worked together down at troop G.

00;18;30;03 - 00;18;31;28
Speaker
we're very familiar with each other.

00;18;31;28 - 00;18;37;15
Speaker
we worked on a number of different cases. So, you know, our piece of that was the investigative side.

00;18;37;15 - 00;18;42;24
Speaker
you know, in first year, there's a lot of confusing information coming out because, you know, ultimately,

00;18;42;24 - 00;18;44;21
Speaker
you know, the shooter is

00;18;44;21 - 00;18;49;02
Speaker
a person. Shooter is confirmed deceased inside the school.

00;18;49;04 - 00;18;51;10
Speaker
we don't know if there were other people there,

00;18;51;10 - 00;18;53;05
Speaker
accomplices or,

00;18;53;05 - 00;19;01;12
Speaker
you know, other, other portions of this to, to track down. So, there are some that there's always going to be in these,

00;19;01;12 - 00;19;03;26
Speaker
information that comes up that,

00;19;03;26 - 00;19;09;13
Speaker
you know, somebody needs to track down, so that initial like coordination of that information, who's going to do what,

00;19;09;13 - 00;19;10;09
Speaker
takes a

00;19;10;09 - 00;19;12;06
Speaker
little bit of time to, to get established.

00;19;12;06 - 00;19;13;11
Speaker
But ultimately,

00;19;13;11 - 00;19;19;13
Speaker
you know, for us, we're executing our methodology relative to investigation. So, if we have to track down,

00;19;19;13 - 00;19;24;03
Speaker
you know, we need to know, essentially, like who else was in the school or who was in the school?

00;19;24;03 - 00;19;28;17
Speaker
because this aspect of it, you know, and like in the case of

00;19;28;17 - 00;19;31;28
Speaker
main, you have an Speaker shooter, like, that's kind of the worst-case scenario.

00;19;31;28 - 00;19;34;15
Speaker
And that's happened in San Bernardino and other places, too.

00;19;34;15 - 00;19;38;24
Speaker
you know, in this case, we have a suspect deceased.

00;19;38;24 - 00;19;44;23
Speaker
but we don't know what else was going on there. So, you know, we don't want to jump to conclusions that this is the only person involved.

00;19;44;23 - 00;19;47;17
Speaker
because we have a there's a forensic aspect to this, too, right?

00;19;47;17 - 00;19;49;18
Speaker
so, getting some of that settled was,

00;19;49;18 - 00;19;53;19
Speaker
you know, the kind of some initial friction there.

00;19;53;19 - 00;19;54;19
Speaker
but then we kind of,

00;19;54;19 - 00;20;02;21
Speaker
we, you know, we really went into our into our methodology, which you know, we set up an investigative CP that was handled by the other sergeant,

00;20;02;21 - 00;20;04;03
Speaker
which was essentially off site,

00;20;04;03 - 00;20;07;04
Speaker
and ultimately for, for my portion of that,

00;20;07;04 - 00;20;09;15
Speaker
everybody kind of collected at the firehouse,

00;20;09;15 - 00;20;10;22
Speaker
at the end of the road,

00;20;10;22 - 00;20;14;16
Speaker
which was there was that was a lot of chaos in there.

00;20;14;19 - 00;20;24;04
Speaker
you know, that's something that, you know, probably in hindsight, because you have you have parents they're trying to reunite with, with their children. You have parents there that are unable to do that.

00;20;24;04 - 00;20;24;26
Speaker
and,

00;20;24;26 - 00;20;36;11
Speaker
everybody else from law enforcement command, other commands, people that want to help local politicians are all converging and essentially one spot. So that that became quite chaotic there.

00;20;36;11 - 00;20;37;20
Speaker
But ultimately,

00;20;37;20 - 00;20;49;03
Speaker
you know, it boils down to the task for my group was to interview everybody that we possibly could be relative to what they saw, what was going on inside the school, who was there, who wasn't there.

00;20;49;03 - 00;20;49;27
Speaker
and,

00;20;49;27 - 00;20;58;02
Speaker
so that was kind of our initial, you know, our initial, our initial task there. So, kind of makeshift investigative CP in the firehouse,

00;20;58;02 - 00;21;01;27
Speaker
and there's a couple lessons, like, relative to that.

00;21;02;00 - 00;21;10;04
Speaker
you know, one is that, you know, so typically our typical protocol is two detectives interview a subject.

00;21;10;04 - 00;21;10;26
Speaker
like, we don't have enough

00;21;10;26 - 00;21;14;24
Speaker
people to do that. We had not like 90 people to interview that were there.

00;21;14;24 - 00;21;17;16
Speaker
so, you have to adapt to these things.

00;21;17;16 - 00;21;22;29
Speaker
so, we grabbed any other detectives that were there, other people?

00;21;23;02 - 00;21;25;19
Speaker
tasked them with an interview. It's all documented.

00;21;25;19 - 00;21;30;24
Speaker
they can get initial information. They know what's relevant. at least at that point in time,

00;21;30;24 - 00;21;35;13
Speaker
you know, initial actions or sights or sounds or whatever else they saw inside the school.

00;21;35;13 - 00;21;44;15
Speaker
and then we can ferret that information out later. So, there's, there's you have to adapt your process here to kind of some of the surrounding circumstances.

00;21;44;20 - 00;21;56;14
Speaker
Yeah. So that was one big lesson there. You mentioned the families and I remember you talking about that too. And obviously, you know, there's people who are, tragically affected by this whole thing and,

00;21;56;14 - 00;22;01;01
Speaker
especially initially rushing to the school as soon as they hear the news and everything else. So,

00;22;01;01 - 00;22;02;29
Speaker
how do you typically,

00;22;02;29 - 00;22;06;03
Speaker
manage the, the families, these people that are, you know,

00;22;06;03 - 00;22;08;07
Speaker
just waiting to hear news and things like that.

00;22;08;07 - 00;22;14;27
Speaker
You assign people just to manage the, the, the families. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately. And that was,

00;22;14;27 - 00;22;18;11
Speaker
you know, probably and things that, that just for pre-planning,

00;22;18;11 - 00;22;20;23
Speaker
and, you know, I know in, in Connecticut,

00;22;20;23 - 00;22;25;20
Speaker
you know, I think across the nation it's fairly uniform, kind of like a model response, but,

00;22;25;20 - 00;22;30;09
Speaker
you know, a family liaison area that's separate from the chaos.

00;22;30;11 - 00;22;35;11
Speaker
if it can, if it can be established. Right. It's kind of a better way to go here.

00;22;35;11 - 00;22;38;26
Speaker
which we didn't have that initially. It kind of evolved,

00;22;38;26 - 00;22;40;18
Speaker
after a little bit of time into that,

00;22;40;18 - 00;22;44;11
Speaker
you know, and so the. Yeah, the re-uniting aspect,

00;22;44;11 - 00;22;51;12
Speaker
like, the more planning you can do and, and organize, you can get that, the better off you are, because it's traumatic for,

00;22;51;12 - 00;22;53;04
Speaker
you know, one of our troopers was a parent.

00;22;53;05 - 00;22;54;16
Speaker
His son was,

00;22;54;16 - 00;22;57;19
Speaker
you know, a first grader in that school,

00;22;57;19 - 00;22;58;26
Speaker
different classroom, but,

00;22;58;26 - 00;23;01;18
Speaker
you know, so there's, there's it's traumatic.

00;23;01;18 - 00;23;05;27
Speaker
and, you know, ultimately,

00;23;05;27 - 00;23;08;24
Speaker
you know, how it kind of was like,

00;23;08;24 - 00;23;12;22
Speaker
kind of how it went down there was you, you know, not the not the best.

00;23;12;22 - 00;23;14;21
Speaker
because it because there was a lot of confusion.

00;23;14;21 - 00;23;16;23
Speaker
So, you know, later on for us,

00;23;16;23 - 00;23;18;17
Speaker
this I think was one of the,

00;23;18;17 - 00;23;23;27
Speaker
One of the better aspects to it was we had it we had a trooper assigned to each family.

00;23;23;27 - 00;23;24;24
Speaker
that was,

00;23;24;24 - 00;23;26;06
Speaker
you know, directly affected,

00;23;26;06 - 00;23;32;28
Speaker
you know, so and whether that trooper was with them, whether they wanted to utilize the trooper or not utilize them.

00;23;33;06 - 00;23;35;18
Speaker
some did, some didn't. Right. It varies on,

00;23;35;18 - 00;23;38;14
Speaker
on how they, how they want to or feel.

00;23;38;14 - 00;23;44;22
Speaker
but at least that, that, that liaison was there to deflect media or

00;23;44;22 - 00;23;50;11
Speaker
get something for them or coordinate or do any of that. And I think that was

00;23;50;11 - 00;23;52;20
Speaker
I think that was fairly well-received.

00;23;52;20 - 00;23;55;29
Speaker
for the, for the most part, an important aspect,

00;23;55;29 - 00;24;01;03
Speaker
because ultimately to hear and I happened to be the, the fortunate, fortunate,

00;24;01;03 - 00;24;03;19
Speaker
fortunate that my, my lieutenant and,

00;24;03;19 - 00;24;06;10
Speaker
another major crime lieutenant, are, are very,

00;24;06;10 - 00;24;08;25
Speaker
victim centric and people centric,

00;24;08;25 - 00;24;09;11
Speaker
leaders.

00;24;09;12 - 00;24;10;09
Speaker
So,

00;24;10;09 - 00;24;20;20
Speaker
you know, one of the bigger lessons overarching that I, that I took from, from my lieutenant was that that kind of victim centric focus, which, okay, I'll try to carry forward here. So,

00;24;20;20 - 00;24;23;24
Speaker
can you give me a sense of the time,

00;24;23;24 - 00;24;33;27
Speaker
that, for example, you’re that the people that were doing like evidence recovery and stuff like that were inside the school, like was this, I mean, because of the number of victims in this case.

00;24;33;27 - 00;24;41;01
Speaker
I mean, was this like a two-day, three days, like how long, how much time are we talking about spending there collecting evidence.

00;24;41;01 - 00;24;47;10
Speaker
yeah. They we were they were they were there the evidence that the, our crime scene unit was they were there for eight days.

00;24;47;10 - 00;24;51;11
Speaker
and then our investigative portion of that was essentially also eight days.

00;24;51;11 - 00;24;53;17
Speaker
so, you know, they, they,

00;24;53;17 - 00;25;00;08
Speaker
you know, ultimately here we kind of had what we kind of had four scenes, right? We had the school, we had external the school,

00;25;00;08 - 00;25;02;09
Speaker
because there was some ballistic evidence,

00;25;02;09 - 00;25;03;25
Speaker
external to the school.

00;25;03;25 - 00;25;06;00
Speaker
we had the house, the house where,

00;25;06;00 - 00;25;08;20
Speaker
the shooter's mother was, was killed,

00;25;08;20 - 00;25;11;04
Speaker
and then and then the ancillary,

00;25;11;04 - 00;25;11;27
Speaker
at the hospital.

00;25;12;00 - 00;25;13;01
Speaker
Right. So,

00;25;13;01 - 00;25;18;06
Speaker
but they spent eight days, eight days there. We had our investigative stood up for eight days.

00;25;18;06 - 00;25;19;08
Speaker
and this is another,

00;25;19;08 - 00;25;23;04
Speaker
you know, probably lesson learned. More for the investigative side.

00;25;23;04 - 00;25;28;17
Speaker
but the fact is that while we were engaged,

00;25;28;17 - 00;25;32;00
Speaker
and we, we ran, the crime scene, you didn't run,

00;25;32;00 - 00;25;33;15
Speaker
ultimately, 24 hours, right?

00;25;33;18 - 00;25;42;02
Speaker
That that they can't do that. But we can run detectives 24 hours. So, we had we had a 20 we had 24-hour coverage on our on our CP there.

00;25;42;02 - 00;25;47;01
Speaker
but ultimately, from the investigative side, while you have those resources there,

00;25;47;01 - 00;25;52;23
Speaker
you need to get done what you can get done. And, and if you need to, you know, extend it, then extend it.

00;25;52;23 - 00;25;55;06
Speaker
Because once we break down the CP,

00;25;55;06 - 00;25;58;20
Speaker
all the support kind of goes away. So, you know, my counterpart,

00;25;58;20 - 00;26;07;04
Speaker
you know, my, my, my team of detectives were assisting them, but ultimately the remainder of the case after those eight days, which took them,

00;26;07;04 - 00;26;12;12
Speaker
over a year to, to kind of pick through everything was, was relegated to that office.

00;26;12;12 - 00;26;19;29
Speaker
So, you know, that was a decision that we made collaboratively. Like, are we ready to break this down? Do we have done what we need done here?

00;26;19;29 - 00;26;24;00
Speaker
and we can kind of dissipate some of our support.

00;26;24;00 - 00;26;29;10
Speaker
and the crime scene unit there was, you know, they were embedded for, for that period of time.

00;26;29;10 - 00;26;36;11
Speaker
and I think if you can imagine here, this is, you know, ultimately, once we determined,

00;26;36;11 - 00;26;42;07
Speaker
which was essentially that the first day until the night that there was,

00;26;42;07 - 00;26;44;09
Speaker
most likely just one person involved,

00;26;44;09 - 00;26;46;22
Speaker
you know, so it's not it's not only,

00;26;46;22 - 00;26;51;23
Speaker
processing the scene, but, you know, the, the reconstruction aspect to

00;26;51;23 - 00;26;53;17
Speaker
them, to it's took them,

00;26;53;17 - 00;27;02;05
Speaker
you know, a long time to go through because we're talking about, you know, when we talk about, like in reconstruction, all the functional and relational detail of,

00;27;02;05 - 00;27;03;19
Speaker
of a scene or an environment,

00;27;03;19 - 00;27;06;12
Speaker
so, they had to, you know, that all that needs to be documented,

00;27;06;12 - 00;27;09;27
Speaker
you know, how the doors locked, where they locked from the intercom work?

00;27;09;29 - 00;27;14;01
Speaker
all these types of things and communication between the investigators,

00;27;14;01 - 00;27;19;22
Speaker
and the crime scene unit is key to success here for capturing that data. That's there.

00;27;19;22 - 00;27;28;22
Speaker
because outside of the evidence-based aspect of it, when some of those questions come up from the outside, the crime scene team needs to know,

00;27;28;22 - 00;27;31;27
Speaker
you know, these questions being asked, does this work?

00;27;31;29 - 00;27;32;14
Speaker
you know,

00;27;32;14 - 00;27;34;24
Speaker
which way does this face that these doors open?

00;27;34;24 - 00;27;39;14
Speaker
both ways or one way? How do they open all that type of detail? So that documentation was,

00;27;39;14 - 00;27;41;01
Speaker
pretty painstaking for them.

00;27;41;01 - 00;27;45;13
Speaker
but that there were a solid veteran team and,

00;27;45;13 - 00;27;47;26
Speaker
you know, got it, got it all accomplished because it,

00;27;47;26 - 00;27;56;18
Speaker
you need to know, you know, the in this case, it's not who, but from the investigative side, it's why which wasn't plainly evident.

00;27;56;18 - 00;27;59;17
Speaker
you know, for the for the victims and their families.

00;27;59;17 - 00;28;05;21
Speaker
you know, and then the how part is the crime scene units, charge. Okay. In terms of,

00;28;05;21 - 00;28;17;26
Speaker
technology, like, did you guys have the. And just curious, like, things like drones, laser scanners, stuff like that. It did. And were there, were there agencies coming say, hey, we want to help.

00;28;17;26 - 00;28;20;24
Speaker
We want to I imagine because of the scale of this thing,

00;28;20;24 - 00;28;26;15
Speaker
you must have had people knocking at your door or just saying, hey, like, we want to help or whatever you need kind of thing.

00;28;26;15 - 00;28;32;02
Speaker
yeah. Yeah, there was certainly a lot of support there. This thing, like, predated our Leica scanner days.

00;28;32;02 - 00;28;33;15
Speaker
in fact, it was really the,

00;28;33;15 - 00;28;36;22
Speaker
the catalyst for our, really our procurement,

00;28;36;22 - 00;28;37;26
Speaker
for the crime scene unit,

00;28;37;26 - 00;28;41;02
Speaker
and ultimately our, our crash reconstruction team was able to,

00;28;41;02 - 00;28;42;13
Speaker
was able to document,

00;28;42;13 - 00;28;46;17
Speaker
and create kind of a three, a 3D, 3D version of,

00;28;46;17 - 00;28;48;21
Speaker
of events from their, from their mapping,

00;28;48;21 - 00;28;48;27
Speaker
which

00;28;48;27 - 00;28;49;24
Speaker
is what we used.

00;28;49;24 - 00;28;52;12
Speaker
but there was certainly, no shortage of,

00;28;52;12 - 00;28;55;13
Speaker
of offers from, from any,

00;28;55;13 - 00;28;59;24
Speaker
any avenue. How important is video in the investigation?

00;28;59;24 - 00;29;03;20
Speaker
well, security like security camera video and stuff like that. Yeah.

00;29;03;20 - 00;29;07;17
Speaker
you know, I, I think it's a,

00;29;07;17 - 00;29;10;26
Speaker
it's data that's, that's available. Right. If it's there,

00;29;10;26 - 00;29;12;13
Speaker
which, which provides,

00;29;12;13 - 00;29;26;14
Speaker
you know, I think a, a fair representation maybe of what happened, you know, my, my opinion on, on video to some degree, particularly if we're talking about like, finite actions is, I think people are over reliant on it to some to, to, to,

00;29;26;14 - 00;29;29;21
Speaker
you know, maybe not a large degree, but,

00;29;29;24 - 00;29;37;08
Speaker
you know, we, we just tend to see what we think we see on video and take it for fact without, you know, you have to consider,

00;29;37;08 - 00;29;44;28
Speaker
you need to consider alternate circumstances to some of these things. I just think it's very easy to slip into some version of a confirmation bias.

00;29;44;28 - 00;29;46;28
Speaker
depends on when you watch the video.

00;29;47;00 - 00;29;51;13
Speaker
obviously when you watch it is, I think, equally as important as what's there.

00;29;51;13 - 00;29;56;08
Speaker
you know, because ultimately, if I watch it first and then I have an opinion,

00;29;56;08 - 00;30;04;01
Speaker
I may only collect evidence. That's relative to that opinion. Right? Just the same as we go through any, any type of cognitive process with reconstruction. So,

00;30;04;01 - 00;30;06;08
Speaker
certainly, important maybe.

00;30;06;08 - 00;30;09;03
Speaker
Maybe for leads, maybe for the reconstruction aspect.

00;30;09;03 - 00;30;15;12
Speaker
and, but, you know, it's another piece of data that's to be used and then, you know, weighed relative to its, to its,

00;30;15;12 - 00;30;26;11
Speaker
probative value and its and its reliability. Okay. Hey, Mark, did you ever, like, while you were, like, while you were on scene or after, you know, thinking, thinking back on, like, what had happened?

00;30;26;13 - 00;30;36;16
Speaker
Was there anything that you maybe thought of and said, you know what, it would have been nice to have had something. And, you know, in my mind, like what I'm thinking about is,

00;30;36;16 - 00;30;37;09
Speaker
like some kind of,

00;30;37;09 - 00;30;46;23
Speaker
really quick and easy case management system or something like this. Do you know what I mean? Like where you can bring all the evidence very quickly together because you're dealing with so many people?

00;30;46;26 - 00;30;48;15
Speaker
yeah. So that's a good,

00;30;48;15 - 00;30;49;20
Speaker
actually, a great question.

00;30;49;20 - 00;30;53;23
Speaker
and one of the, one of the, one of the takeaways we had from there. So,

00;30;53;23 - 00;30;58;21
Speaker
because ultimately, from the investigative standpoint and this is one of these things where we had,

00;30;58;21 - 00;30;59;28
Speaker
you know, we had a team of,

00;30;59;28 - 00;31;02;06
Speaker
of primary investigators,

00;31;02;06 - 00;31;10;13
Speaker
you know, whose task specific focus was this incident and this incident only, you know, ultimately, we had an intelligence,

00;31;10;13 - 00;31;13;27
Speaker
detective there who was keeping,

00;31;13;27 - 00;31;16;14
Speaker
a log, essentially of activities,

00;31;16;14 - 00;31;18;03
Speaker
that came in, you know, really

00;31;18;03 - 00;31;19;10
Speaker
kind of rudimentary.

00;31;19;10 - 00;31;23;05
Speaker
so, yeah, that, that case management system that, you know, we've seen at,

00;31;23;05 - 00;31;25;20
Speaker
some conferences that we've been to relative to that,

00;31;25;20 - 00;31;27;10
Speaker
you know, the FBI has one that,

00;31;27;10 - 00;31;28;10
Speaker
the Leo,

00;31;28;10 - 00;31;33;20
Speaker
you know, relative to keeping track of some of those. So we were, you know, we were executing that,

00;31;33;20 - 00;31;34;27
Speaker
as we went along,

00;31;34;27 - 00;31;40;18
Speaker
you know, a more automated process probably would have saved time and been a little bit more efficient.

00;31;40;18 - 00;31;41;05
Speaker
But,

00;31;41;05 - 00;31;57;01
Speaker
you know that that was a key aspect to look to, to, at least leaving a trail of where we were going and what we were doing investigative. because for a lot of time, it's like we have we have we have lead sheets. They're kind of they're carbon copy. Like, I still like those,

00;31;57;01 - 00;31;59;17
Speaker
because they're here, they're tangible.

00;31;59;23 - 00;32;08;04
Speaker
I write down a lead, I rip off the top copy, I give it to a detective, I put it in the pending box right when he comes back, or she comes back with it.

00;32;08;04 - 00;32;12;17
Speaker
I look at what the information says. We develop. Any other leads? Yeah, we go from there.

00;32;12;17 - 00;32;13;25
Speaker
and that one's closed.

00;32;13;25 - 00;32;15;00
Speaker
but it's all paper, right?

00;32;15;00 - 00;32;15;15
Speaker
So,

00;32;15;15 - 00;32;18;15
Speaker
automation is good, which we eventually got those automated.

00;32;18;15 - 00;32;22;03
Speaker
I still do carry a stack of paper ones in my trunk.

00;32;22;03 - 00;32;27;10
Speaker
just in case. So, you know that that's that was an important aspect there.

00;32;27;10 - 00;32;31;13
Speaker
yeah. The other part, too, I'll just say about the investigation,

00;32;31;13 - 00;32;34;22
Speaker
piece, which was really critical, I think in

00;32;34;22 - 00;32;39;21
Speaker
one of the, the, the better things that we had there was,

00;32;39;21 - 00;32;45;29
Speaker
you know, so one, it was established that the state police were the primary investigators on the case.

00;32;45;29 - 00;32;46;23
Speaker
Right.

00;32;46;23 - 00;32;50;17
Speaker
so, there was there wasn't anything that did conflict there.

00;32;50;17 - 00;32;52;24
Speaker
so that was just that was right away.

00;32;52;24 - 00;32;56;15
Speaker
but we had in our, in our command post,

00;32;56;15 - 00;32;59;26
Speaker
we had FBI agents, we had US marshals,

00;32;59;26 - 00;33;03;03
Speaker
we had ATF agents, we had states attorneys.

00;33;03;03 - 00;33;03;21
Speaker
we had,

00;33;03;21 - 00;33;05;08
Speaker
Federal prosecutors,

00;33;05;08 - 00;33;10;05
Speaker
and then we had another team of investigators that were there to handle,

00;33;10;05 - 00;33;15;06
Speaker
unfortunately, all the other ancillary threats and other things that come in,

00;33;15;06 - 00;33;16;29
Speaker
on the heels of some of these things.

00;33;17;02 - 00;33;21;23
Speaker
Right. So, we have threats on other schools. We had bomb threats. We had all sorts of,

00;33;21;23 - 00;33;39;04
Speaker
distracting essentially, you know, not unimportant if they're real, but things that need to be investigated but are not task specific to our investigation. So that other team of investigators was there on standby. And when something came in, they went and investigated it so that that whole,

00;33;39;04 - 00;33;42;09
Speaker
team that was assembled there,

00;33;42;09 - 00;33;44;06
Speaker
and streamlined process,

00;33;44;06 - 00;33;54;12
Speaker
so really, enabled us to move forward quickly with, with the work that that needed to be done relative to the investigative piece.

00;33;54;14 - 00;34;02;25
Speaker
and was a huge value adding because for, for any of these incidents, all these other, all these other things are going to, are going to occur,

00;34;02;25 - 00;34;13;25
Speaker
and they're distracting and somebody needs to be tasked to handle them. So, you know that that said, two, we also had detectives whose sole job it was to screen some information that was coming in.

00;34;13;28 - 00;34;16;03
Speaker
And if it wasn't task specific,

00;34;16;03 - 00;34;20;11
Speaker
got documented and went elsewhere, so we could focus on our work. Right.

00;34;20;11 - 00;34;22;15
Speaker
Mark, I want to ask you about the,

00;34;22;15 - 00;34;28;15
Speaker
obviously the there's going to be some emotional, some mental health things that, like we mentioned before,

00;34;28;15 - 00;34;33;12
Speaker
going into this and knowing, you know, maybe when you got there, the scale of this,

00;34;33;12 - 00;34;41;28
Speaker
is there any was there any consideration either like before, during or after about who was going to get assigned to do what?

00;34;42;00 - 00;34;42;19
Speaker
And,

00;34;42;19 - 00;34;49;28
Speaker
you know, maybe, you know, some like you said, you had a team member there that had, you know, a child at, at school. Right? So,

00;34;49;28 - 00;34;54;29
Speaker
I don't know, was it, you know, safe to put that person maybe doing one thing versus another?

00;34;54;29 - 00;35;05;28
Speaker
and you know what you noticed maybe with respect to, you know, just the emotions of people and the mental health of people along this investigation.

00;35;06;01 - 00;35;07;26
Speaker
yeah. Thank thanks for,

00;35;07;26 - 00;35;08;25
Speaker
bringing that up. It's,

00;35;08;25 - 00;35;11;00
Speaker
you know, I think,

00;35;11;00 - 00;35;15;23
Speaker
you know, ultimately here and I can talk from, I guess, my personal experience,

00;35;15;23 - 00;35;17;21
Speaker
and observations, but,

00;35;17;21 - 00;35;22;03
Speaker
you know, I think initially, initially, everybody is, you know, it's shocking, but,

00;35;22;03 - 00;35;25;07
Speaker
people focus on the task at hand and get to work.

00;35;25;09 - 00;35;28;11
Speaker
you know, now, we were that we were there for eight for eight days.

00;35;28;11 - 00;35;35;07
Speaker
so, at some point, you know, 2 or 3 days as we're, as we're, you know, moving through this,

00;35;35;07 - 00;35;38;11
Speaker
you know, and this is a leadership type of,

00;35;38;11 - 00;35;41;12
Speaker
type of issue, essentially, or engagement. Right.

00;35;41;12 - 00;35;47;25
Speaker
you know, we talked to the detectives and a sense of and not just like, hey, how's it, you know, you're

00;35;47;25 - 00;35;49;06
Speaker
you're all right.

00;35;49;09 - 00;35;54;10
Speaker
but meaning meaningfully asking, right? I mean, the lieutenant that was,

00;35;54;10 - 00;35;57;13
Speaker
responsible for myself and the other sergeant in the team,

00;35;57;13 - 00;36;05;29
Speaker
pulled everyone aside, sat us down, looked at us, and eyes made sure we were, like, engaging and asked us how we were doing. Right.

00;36;05;29 - 00;36;06;26
Speaker
and this is,

00;36;06;26 - 00;36;10;18
Speaker
you know, and similarly to the to the detectives,

00;36;10;18 - 00;36;13;17
Speaker
and if somebody needed a break,

00;36;13;17 - 00;36;17;14
Speaker
or couldn't work that day, then they took a break,

00;36;17;14 - 00;36;19;24
Speaker
and took the afternoon or whatever their shift was.

00;36;20;00 - 00;36;21;00
Speaker
And there's no,

00;36;21;00 - 00;36;26;12
Speaker
you know, there's no stigma attached to that. You know, this. I mean, coming from my days in the Marine Corps,

00;36;26;12 - 00;36;39;24
Speaker
you know, which was, I guess, a longer time ago now than maybe I, I want to admit, but, you know, that whole, like, tough guy type of type of thing has really, really eroded and should and should have.

00;36;39;24 - 00;36;40;04
Speaker
Right.

00;36;40;04 - 00;36;48;28
Speaker
because it's, it's not healthy. So, so during that process, you know, we did that. People needed a break. They got a break and there's no there's no issues with it. Right.

00;36;48;28 - 00;36;50;29
Speaker
you know, we had,

00;36;50;29 - 00;36;54;19
Speaker
chaplains there. We had the AP, their support services,

00;36;57;11 - 00;36;58;28
Speaker
If available.

00;36;58;28 - 00;37;00;27
Speaker
if somebody needed to engage,

00;37;00;27 - 00;37;02;16
Speaker
so that was,

00;37;02;16 - 00;37;03;26
Speaker
you know, that was a big part of it,

00;37;03;26 - 00;37;08;08
Speaker
you know, but and ultimately here why? You're engaged and working.

00;37;08;08 - 00;37;12;28
Speaker
you're focused on the task. I can tell you that,

00;37;12;28 - 00;37;16;25
Speaker
you know, I had my son was,

00;37;16;25 - 00;37;18;13
Speaker
four years old at the time.

00;37;18;13 - 00;37;21;21
Speaker
you know, when I went home that first night,

00;37;21;21 - 00;37;23;23
Speaker
I couldn't look at him,

00;37;23;23 - 00;37;27;22
Speaker
because I, I would have broken down.

00;37;27;24 - 00;37;30;13
Speaker
So, you know, in order to, like, remain focused,

00;37;30;13 - 00;37;32;19
Speaker
just came home, went to bed, went back to work,

00;37;32;19 - 00;37;33;29
Speaker
you know, and ultimately,

00;37;33;29 - 00;37;38;07
Speaker
that when we, when we broke down the CP after the eighth day, I was,

00;37;38;07 - 00;37;40;01
Speaker
I'm a big Dunkin Donuts person.

00;37;40;01 - 00;37;42;15
Speaker
so, I stopped at Dunkin Donuts.

00;37;42;15 - 00;37;44;16
Speaker
which what do you have up in what's in Canada?

00;37;44;19 - 00;37;47;20
Speaker
Tim Hortons? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have them here.

00;37;47;20 - 00;37;52;01
Speaker
you know, I, I stopped in Dunkin, and I didn't really need to go there, but I was, I was,

00;37;52;01 - 00;37;58;21
Speaker
I was, like, hesitant to go home, I guess. Right. I called one of my friends, you know, and we had a chat,

00;37;58;21 - 00;38;03;26
Speaker
just because we're going from such an intensely focused environment to,

00;38;03;26 - 00;38;07;26
Speaker
to now having to deal with our process,

00;38;07;26 - 00;38;09;06
Speaker
a lot, a lot of different things.

00;38;09;06 - 00;38;19;16
Speaker
So, you know, I mean, that was my initial, I guess, you know, experience with, you know, hey, like something, you know, there's things going on here, right?

00;38;19;16 - 00;38;21;15
Speaker
that that need to be processed. So,

00;38;21;15 - 00;38;23;23
Speaker
you know, the agency was very supportive with it.

00;38;23;23 - 00;38;29;05
Speaker
but ultimately, as with a lot of these,

00;38;29;05 - 00;38;36;02
Speaker
traumatic events and whether it's from a singular event or accumulated from, you know, law enforcement over time,

00;38;36;02 - 00;38;37;21
Speaker
they manifest at different times.

00;38;37;21 - 00;38;47;03
Speaker
So, you know, a week after you're done and recovered and, like, you've rested up and back to work does not necessarily mean you're, you know, you're okay. Right?

00;38;47;03 - 00;38;53;10
Speaker
you know, so these things manifest at different times. And there's, there's a lot of different triggers that, that occur.

00;38;53;10 - 00;38;55;27
Speaker
depending on what you experienced.

00;38;55;27 - 00;38;59;17
Speaker
and then what you experience further on.

00;38;59;19 - 00;39;05;01
Speaker
so, so watching out for your people or your peers,

00;39;05;01 - 00;39;17;28
Speaker
is important post event too. And like you say, I and I, I know I brought this up at the I edta conference that, you know, a couple of years maybe removed two years removed.

00;39;17;28 - 00;39;20;24
Speaker
we had an ATV accident, a ten-year-old was,

00;39;20;24 - 00;39;21;09
Speaker
killed on,

00;39;21;09 - 00;39;23;06
Speaker
on an ATV.

00;39;23;08 - 00;39;26;25
Speaker
so, the troop asked for detectives to come out and,

00;39;26;25 - 00;39;29;17
Speaker
and help them with that scene.

00;39;29;17 - 00;39;36;05
Speaker
I assigned a detective that was, you know, with, with the with our investigation,

00;39;36;05 - 00;39;39;17
Speaker
without really thinking, like, because he, he had,

00;39;39;17 - 00;39;41;06
Speaker
you know, one, he had children.

00;39;41;06 - 00;39;41;21
Speaker
two,

00;39;41;21 - 00;39;42;10
Speaker
you know, he,

00;39;42;10 - 00;39;44;11
Speaker
had experienced,

00;39;44;11 - 00;39;46;26
Speaker
that Sandy hook event,

00;39;46;26 - 00;39;58;01
Speaker
and it didn't dawn on me until later the next day that, hey, you know, maybe I should have checked with him and said, are you okay going out to, you know, yet another child death?

00;39;58;03 - 00;40;00;29
Speaker
because, you know, these things pile on. So,

00;40;00;29 - 00;40;10;11
Speaker
you know, and if the answer was, you know, I'd rather not do that, Sergeant. Then that's fine. What? We'll get somebody else to do it. But I didn't think of that till after.

00;40;10;11 - 00;40;11;01
Speaker
so,

00;40;11;01 - 00;40;15;27
Speaker
I did ask him after and apologize really that, you know, hey, I should have I should have checked with you.

00;40;15;29 - 00;40;22;03
Speaker
didn't occur to me, and so those type of, like, post incident assignments are,

00;40;22;03 - 00;40;25;04
Speaker
you know, from a leadership perspective, something that the,

00;40;25;04 - 00;40;26;08
Speaker
taking into account,

00;40;26;08 - 00;40;33;18
Speaker
with the, with your, with your personnel and then, you know, further, you have to you have to watch out for each other.

00;40;33;18 - 00;40;37;24
Speaker
so that that's all that's very important.

00;40;37;27 - 00;41;01;26
Speaker
and these things still, you know, they still crop up every, every now and again, right? Unexpectedly to, you know, it's kind of sometimes strange, right? Yeah. No, I was going to ask you to, like, you know, how do you how do you take care of yourself after how do you take care of your peers, like, you know, and you mentioned, like, obviously having a good network of friends and community and stuff like that.

00;41;01;26 - 00;41;02;15
Speaker
And,

00;41;02;15 - 00;41;15;17
Speaker
you know, your, your, you know, wrestling and, and I know, I know you work out and you've run, and you do, and you are pretty you're pretty dedicated with. That's too. So obviously, you know getting stress out is very helpful mentally as well. Like having that physical,

00;41;15;17 - 00;41;18;19
Speaker
you know, outlet that helps you mentally as well.

00;41;18;22 - 00;41;19;21
Speaker
but you know,

00;41;19;21 - 00;41;20;06
Speaker
I don't know,

00;41;20;06 - 00;41;23;17
Speaker
you know what, what works for you?

00;41;23;17 - 00;41;25;01
Speaker
yeah, I think definitely,

00;41;25;01 - 00;41;29;18
Speaker
having an outlet is important, healthy one. Right.

00;41;29;18 - 00;41;30;27
Speaker
and,

00;41;30;27 - 00;41;40;20
Speaker
when I was at the training academy, you know, I said to all these recruit classes and this, this really comes from these experiences, like, it's a stressful environment there.

00;41;40;20 - 00;41;42;27
Speaker
You have to carve out time for yourself,

00;41;42;27 - 00;41;50;17
Speaker
and whatever form that takes, if it's being alone for a half an hour in the morning, then that's fine. If it's being with your family or your friends,

00;41;50;17 - 00;41;54;24
Speaker
you know, whatever it is, you need to carve out time for yourself to do this, right? So,

00;41;54;24 - 00;41;58;28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I may have I have a lot of outlets.

00;41;59;01 - 00;41;59;13
Speaker
you know,

00;41;59;13 - 00;42;03;07
Speaker
physical exercise is certainly one of them. Teaching is another,

00;42;03;07 - 00;42;12;12
Speaker
you know, I mean, I the, the, the, the forensic aspect, some of the casework that we do, although it's, you know, still related to death is,

00;42;12;12 - 00;42;13;21
Speaker
is helpful for me.

00;42;13;21 - 00;42;15;01
Speaker
you know, I do some writing,

00;42;15;01 - 00;42;16;16
Speaker
and,

00;42;16;16 - 00;42;18;10
Speaker
you coach too? Yeah.

00;42;18;10 - 00;42;21;18
Speaker
Coach. Right. Coach wrestling. I volunteer at a therapeutic,

00;42;21;18 - 00;42;22;17
Speaker
horse farm.

00;42;22;17 - 00;42;23;18
Speaker
which has been great.

00;42;23;18 - 00;42;26;12
Speaker
you know, one helping out. Helping out.

00;42;26;12 - 00;42;27;18
Speaker
the kids that go there,

00;42;27;18 - 00;42;28;09
Speaker
you know, plus.

00;42;28;09 - 00;42;31;14
Speaker
But, you know, for me, I started there in the veterans’ program,

00;42;31;14 - 00;42;33;22
Speaker
you know, so that association with horses has been,

00;42;33;22 - 00;42;35;20
Speaker
you know, unexpected, but really,

00;42;35;20 - 00;42;37;10
Speaker
you know, really a good outlet.

00;42;37;13 - 00;42;37;23
Speaker
They,

00;42;37;23 - 00;42;39;04
Speaker
they're there for you.

00;42;39;04 - 00;42;42;20
Speaker
right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, a lot of that, all those things are important,

00;42;42;20 - 00;42;50;22
Speaker
you know, and you just you need a good support network. Network. But, you know, awareness of awareness of that too, is, is also critical.

00;42;50;22 - 00;42;52;24
Speaker
and at the 2014 conference,

00;42;52;24 - 00;42;58;19
Speaker
if you remember, Joe Slim goes from Edmonton, did a presentation on essentially PTSD, right.

00;42;58;22 - 00;43;00;21
Speaker
and they have a great program,

00;43;00;21 - 00;43;01;22
Speaker
for their members.

00;43;01;22 - 00;43;05;25
Speaker
and then maybe all across Canada, I don't know, but I know, I know he's in Edmonton.

00;43;05;25 - 00;43;14;11
Speaker
you know, where they they're really embedded in education relative to that, in the continuum that you kind of flow back and forth on between green and,

00;43;14;11 - 00;43;16;27
Speaker
you know, hopefully not red where you're actually injured.

00;43;16;29 - 00;43;24;29
Speaker
but that, that education and that awareness is important for people to realize, you know, what my behaviors are, where

00;43;24;29 - 00;43;29;11
Speaker
where I may be on this continuum. Do I need to do I need to get help or talk to somebody?

00;43;29;11 - 00;43;34;28
Speaker
and, you know, and again, it doesn't have to be, focal point, traumatic event.

00;43;34;28 - 00;43;36;05
Speaker
you know, I mean, I think

00;43;36;05 - 00;43;38;14
Speaker
from having to answer my phone,

00;43;38;14 - 00;43;40;15
Speaker
continuous at all times.

00;43;40;18 - 00;43;48;21
Speaker
I don't like my phone ringing anymore, you know, so that's another accumulated, you know, another accumulated stress or anxiety, but,

00;43;48;21 - 00;43;49;16
Speaker
part of it. But,

00;43;49;16 - 00;43;53;07
Speaker
you know, these outlets are helpful to, to keep you centered,

00;43;53;07 - 00;43;55;19
Speaker
along with whatever other support network you need,

00;43;55;19 - 00;44;01;03
Speaker
and really looking out for your peers, too. And I imagine that, you know, once,

00;44;01;03 - 00;44;02;03
Speaker
things had settled.

00;44;02;10 - 00;44;09;06
Speaker
Settled a little bit after all the investigation and everything else, that there was probably like a few, I imagine, more than one big, you know, debrief,

00;44;09;06 - 00;44;12;26
Speaker
you know, different aspects of just the whole event and,

00;44;12;26 - 00;44;15;10
Speaker
you know, maybe some,

00;44;15;10 - 00;44;23;15
Speaker
some changes or some suggested changes in protocols or, like, things like that. Is there anything that, you know that maybe,

00;44;23;15 - 00;44;35;25
Speaker
with respect to the schools, for example, because, I mean, they had the door locked and things like that, but are there any things that came out of the investigation, either for, you know, prevention for,

00;44;35;25 - 00;44;39;28
Speaker
you know, during an incident like that or post incident?

00;44;40;01 - 00;44;47;26
Speaker
yeah. I think, you know, in our in some of the things we discussed, you know, internally, the crime scene unit debrief, the investigating unit debriefed,

00;44;47;26 - 00;44;50;28
Speaker
you know, overall, the state police are handling,

00;44;50;28 - 00;44;55;08
Speaker
was another aspect. But, you know, certainly hardening of schools really resulted,

00;44;55;08 - 00;44;56;13
Speaker
in large part from that.

00;44;56;13 - 00;45;00;26
Speaker
you know, and in this case, the right the doors, the doors were locked, you know, it was they were locked down.

00;45;00;26 - 00;45;02;12
Speaker
They went into their protocol.

00;45;02;12 - 00;45;06;24
Speaker
but there's, you know, in any examination of,

00;45;06;24 - 00;45;07;21
Speaker
of a scene,

00;45;07;21 - 00;45;11;12
Speaker
relative to an event, there's always room for improvement. So, you know,

00;45;11;12 - 00;45;13;25
Speaker
that the hardening of schools,

00;45;13;25 - 00;45;15;23
Speaker
really developed, I think, from that,

00;45;15;23 - 00;45;22;21
Speaker
and not only that, but then also tactics, because if you harden your school, I need to be able to get into it if I need to,

00;45;22;21 - 00;45;24;04
Speaker
as a first responder.

00;45;24;04 - 00;45;24;19
Speaker
Right.

00;45;24;19 - 00;45;30;00
Speaker
so, so there's some education and planning that has to go, has to go into that, into that piece of it, too.

00;45;30;00 - 00;45;31;14
Speaker
you know, and I think,

00;45;31;14 - 00;45;37;16
Speaker
you know, the larger takeaways from this for us logistically,

00;45;37;16 - 00;45;39;11
Speaker
it was a massive undertaking,

00;45;39;11 - 00;45;41;21
Speaker
for the agency, you know, with the assistance of,

00;45;41;21 - 00;45;43;05
Speaker
of a lot of other places,

00;45;43;05 - 00;45;44;06
Speaker
you know, where we,

00;45;44;06 - 00;45;45;00
Speaker
we're able to,

00;45;45;00 - 00;45;48;13
Speaker
support, support the families, either with the liaisons,

00;45;48;13 - 00;45;50;19
Speaker
you know, and then from the investigative side,

00;45;50;19 - 00;45;52;10
Speaker
with some debriefs to them,

00;45;52;10 - 00;45;56;15
Speaker
specifically, and focused on them before any other information came out.

00;45;56;18 - 00;46;04;16
Speaker
because that was, you know, it's always trying not to retraumatize. And, you know, we need to establish trust.

00;46;04;16 - 00;46;10;11
Speaker
you know, that. And that was my, again, my lieutenant and my counterpart, the sergeant,

00;46;10;11 - 00;46;14;21
Speaker
really driving that process to make sure that they were able to,

00;46;14;21 - 00;46;18;12
Speaker
he is supportive as we could as they, as they went through this.

00;46;18;14 - 00;46;23;08
Speaker
so, yeah, a lot, you know, some tactical, tactical lessons,

00;46;23;08 - 00;46;25;18
Speaker
stream strategic planning lessons.

00;46;25;18 - 00;46;27;21
Speaker
and then, you know, from the external part,

00;46;27;21 - 00;46;29;22
Speaker
you know, really the schools were tightening up,

00;46;29;22 - 00;46;33;14
Speaker
kind of how they how they secured themselves. Yeah. I think,

00;46;33;14 - 00;46;35;04
Speaker
in light of, like, all the other,

00;46;35;04 - 00;46;36;25
Speaker
shootings that have been going on,

00;46;36;25 - 00;46;37;25
Speaker
in other places.

00;46;37;25 - 00;46;38;16
Speaker
So,

00;46;38;16 - 00;46;41;02
Speaker
and not all of them at schools, but,

00;46;41;02 - 00;46;42;11
Speaker
like, there was a long time ago,

00;46;42;11 - 00;46;45;10
Speaker
try to remember that was there was the parkland school in Florida.

00;46;45;10 - 00;46;48;12
Speaker
I remember that was a big that was a that was a big one to,

00;46;48;12 - 00;46;50;22
Speaker
the obviously the main one that we talked about,

00;46;50;22 - 00;46;52;28
Speaker
and more recently, I think in,

00;46;52;28 - 00;46;54;01
Speaker
Texas,

00;46;54;01 - 00;46;54;18
Speaker
is Uvalde.

00;46;54;25 - 00;47;08;17
Speaker
There was like a shooting there. Yeah. So, I mean, it just it seems to be occurring. And so have you thought about, like, I don't know, but I don't know if there's a way to share a lot of your learning experiences, obviously going to conferences and things like that. But, you know, this is going to keep happening.

00;47;08;17 - 00;47;11;15
Speaker
I hate to say, but, you know, at least if,

00;47;11;15 - 00;47;23;27
Speaker
if this information is shared amongst especially the people who have already had a situation like a situation like this, and maybe they can learn from each other, it might be interesting to, to somehow form a little program or something where,

00;47;23;27 - 00;47;25;14
Speaker
people who I mean, I'm

00;47;25;14 - 00;47;36;28
Speaker
assuming that, you know, in Connecticut and, you know, Newtown, you know, they weren't expecting probably something like this to happen. I mean, I looked at, you know, looking at it, it looks like a decent neighborhood and everything else. So. Yeah.

00;47;36;28 - 00;47;37;16
Speaker
yeah.

00;47;37;16 - 00;47;40;22
Speaker
I, you know, when you said, you know, are you prepared?

00;47;40;22 - 00;47;46;15
Speaker
you know, probably people don't think that this is going to happen to them, but, you know, it did for you guys, right?

00;47;46;15 - 00;47;50;13
Speaker
So sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. The,

00;47;50;13 - 00;47;52;12
Speaker
you know, the lessons learned here.

00;47;52;12 - 00;47;53;26
Speaker
and I know, you know, my lieutenant,

00;47;53;26 - 00;48;01;10
Speaker
previous lieutenant, you know, we did a, we did a presentation, actually, in Maine to their major crime people a few years back.

00;48;01;10 - 00;48;03;07
Speaker
and he he'd been,

00;48;03;07 - 00;48;08;03
Speaker
he'd been traveling different places, as requested, you know, can we get a

00;48;08;03 - 00;48;10;12
Speaker
talk on this relative to the lessons that were learned?

00;48;10;12 - 00;48;14;00
Speaker
You know, some more specifics there. But either way,

00;48;14;00 - 00;48;15;15
Speaker
and that's kind of the whole point of,

00;48;15;15 - 00;48;18;03
Speaker
like, when he discusses it or if I do,

00;48;18;03 - 00;48;21;29
Speaker
you know, or from the investigative side is really for,

00;48;21;29 - 00;48;24;12
Speaker
to help other agencies,

00;48;24;12 - 00;48;29;28
Speaker
with that not only investigative but the aftermath part,

00;48;29;28 - 00;48;33;14
Speaker
you know, and also for, for a tactical response because time

00;48;33;14 - 00;48;35;13
Speaker
with time here saves lives like,

00;48;35;13 - 00;48;41;02
Speaker
you know, the public has an expectation of law enforcement for these incidents, which is get in there and stop the threat.

00;48;41;04 - 00;48;44;25
Speaker
and you know that that is really our mandate. So,

00;48;44;25 - 00;48;49;02
Speaker
and the faster that that people can do that,

00;48;49;02 - 00;48;55;00
Speaker
you know, the, the less dramatic hopefully these, these events will, will be. But,

00;48;55;00 - 00;48;56;14
Speaker
yeah, certainly,

00;48;56;14 - 00;49;00;27
Speaker
sharing those and the, the other thing, you know, my, my lieutenant also had been to,

00;49;00;27 - 00;49;02;21
Speaker
talk to victims from different,

00;49;02;21 - 00;49;03;29
Speaker
I don't know if it was a forum.

00;49;03;29 - 00;49;09;13
Speaker
different shootings, right, to get their perspective. Like, what could law enforcement do to help them better?

00;49;09;13 - 00;49;12;28
Speaker
and the salient one for me, from one aspect was,

00;49;12;28 - 00;49;17;25
Speaker
look, we're in there. Our job is to clear the threat, go to the threat, find the threat. So, if people are injured,

00;49;17;25 - 00;49;22;05
Speaker
they're ultimately getting bypassed until we can stop the shooting.

00;49;22;08 - 00;49;25;12
Speaker
So, somebody said, if somebody like said to me,

00;49;25;12 - 00;49;30;15
Speaker
you know, we're all here to help you. Somebody will be here or, you know, some,

00;49;30;15 - 00;49;40;16
Speaker
just some comment like that. If it's, you know, even if anybody can remember it or it's possible, they, you know, the articulation was, and this is coming second hand.

00;49;40;16 - 00;49;41;16
Speaker
that would have helped them.

00;49;41;16 - 00;49;46;24
Speaker
So, you know the victim aspect too, I think, you know, we pulled away a lot of,

00;49;46;24 - 00;49;48;06
Speaker
you know, lessons on how to,

00;49;48;06 - 00;49;54;22
Speaker
you know, not retraumatize or how to how to, to be as empathetic and,

00;49;54;22 - 00;49;56;19
Speaker
transparent as we could with, with,

00;49;56;19 - 00;50;00;28
Speaker
with the victims, because, you know, we're there to really support them, too.

00;50;00;28 - 00;50;08;05
Speaker
So that was, you know, another kind of take away relative to that aspect of lessons learned to. Yeah. Hey, Mark, in terms of,

00;50;08;05 - 00;50;09;16
Speaker
preplanning is an interesting

00;50;09;16 - 00;50;10;29
Speaker
I'll take a question here from,

00;50;10;29 - 00;50;12;29
Speaker
somebody in the audience since Jerry Myers,

00;50;12;29 - 00;50;16;01
Speaker
did you have access to the school floor plan right away?

00;50;16;01 - 00;50;20;20
Speaker
the community there, was it fairly well known to the police there?

00;50;20;20 - 00;50;25;12
Speaker
Are they familiar with all the schools and stuff like that already? So, it wasn't really that important or,

00;50;25;12 - 00;50;28;22
Speaker
were there people going into this thing, you know, blind?

00;50;28;22 - 00;50;34;23
Speaker
yeah. I mean, the PD may have they met the, the police department I'm sure had had access to it, you know, but with

00;50;34;23 - 00;50;36;05
Speaker
with a lot a lot of these,

00;50;36;05 - 00;50;38;00
Speaker
you know, active shooter is active shooter.

00;50;38;00 - 00;50;43;11
Speaker
So. Yeah, you know, you don't really you don't have time to, to study a map.

00;50;43;11 - 00;50;47;09
Speaker
you know, it's essentially gone in and, and move to the sound of the guns,

00;50;47;09 - 00;50;50;17
Speaker
you know, then, but follow on relative to that.

00;50;50;17 - 00;50;55;11
Speaker
you know, it becomes important for, for the people that are, like, one step removed from there.

00;50;55;13 - 00;51;05;05
Speaker
particularly now if I'm articulating, in this hallway, I went in the front door, I just took a left, and, I'm going down this long hallway, and I see, I see in room 28,

00;51;05;05 - 00;51;08;21
Speaker
now the map becomes important because then I can then I can be directed,

00;51;08;21 - 00;51;13;21
Speaker
or at least orient somebody on the outside to information from to where I am.

00;51;13;21 - 00;51;14;11
Speaker
So,

00;51;14;11 - 00;51;21;08
Speaker
you know, we, I know currently all our schools in kinetic are required to, to submit plans in an emergency,

00;51;21;08 - 00;51;22;13
Speaker
action plan. So,

00;51;22;13 - 00;51;24;07
Speaker
you know, they're, they're all available.

00;51;24;07 - 00;51;29;17
Speaker
and we have cameras up where I have access to a lot of cameras in the schools as well. So,

00;51;29;17 - 00;51;32;09
Speaker
you know, we can switch over in dispatch and,

00;51;32;09 - 00;51;36;00
Speaker
look at the cameras from what the school sees.

00;51;36;00 - 00;51;40;25
Speaker
So, you know, and that's, that's advanced, you know, beyond the 2014, but,

00;51;40;25 - 00;51;47;04
Speaker
yeah. So, it's important. It depends on, I guess, where you're where you are in the, in the process or which. Okay.

00;51;47;04 - 00;51;48;13
Speaker
That's interesting. I didn't know that,

00;51;48;13 - 00;51;54;02
Speaker
you'd had access to school, like, so are there a number of schools that you have access to that in case something happens?

00;51;54;02 - 00;51;55;10
Speaker
You can,

00;51;55;10 - 00;52;03;16
Speaker
just look in. Yeah, yeah. Any map in Litchfield? You know, it's kind of like a it's a web. Web website. So, we're on there.

00;52;03;16 - 00;52;06;09
Speaker
you know, we have access to it so we can look at their cameras,

00;52;06;09 - 00;52;12;09
Speaker
you know, and we do drills. We've done drills with them relative to, being able to get into the school,

00;52;12;09 - 00;52;13;11
Speaker
when they're locked down,

00;52;13;11 - 00;52;15;20
Speaker
and proceed to a certain location.

00;52;15;26 - 00;52;21;19
Speaker
Right. So, you know, some of these things and, of course, whatever you practice won't be what happens. But,

00;52;21;19 - 00;52;30;11
Speaker
you know, you'll have some semblance of the moving parts to, to how to execute when you're once, once you're boots at the ground. Yeah. Right. So, Mark, so what's,

00;52;30;11 - 00;52;31;18
Speaker
what's next for you? I mean,

00;52;31;18 - 00;52;32;26
Speaker
do all these lessons learned,

00;52;32;26 - 00;52;35;17
Speaker
you went out, you present this at Acer,

00;52;35;17 - 00;52;37;13
Speaker
last year, and,

00;52;37;13 - 00;52;43;06
Speaker
are you looking to do any more in this particular area or, like, looking to share this with other people?

00;52;43;08 - 00;52;47;05
Speaker
you know, I don't know what. What are your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, I think,

00;52;47;05 - 00;52;49;17
Speaker
you know, I think that the Acer presentation was,

00;52;49;17 - 00;52;55;04
Speaker
you know, and that that really came out of a mental health discussion at our, our previous PTA conference.

00;52;55;04 - 00;52;55;14
Speaker
and,

00;52;55;14 - 00;52;58;16
Speaker
you know, a lot of my, my former lieutenant who's been,

00;52;58;18 - 00;52;59;16
Speaker
Has talked to,

00;52;59;16 - 00;53;04;12
Speaker
a lot of a lot of different PDS that are requested, you know, some of those I go with him on,

00;53;04;12 - 00;53;07;02
Speaker
because it's good to, to kind of team up for some of these things,

00;53;07;02 - 00;53;14;08
Speaker
you know, in order to go through that. But I think any, you know, any information that law enforcement, you know, wants or needs,

00;53;14;08 - 00;53;17;07
Speaker
you know, particularly if you've experienced it,

00;53;17;07 - 00;53;19;26
Speaker
is important for them to be able to,

00;53;19;26 - 00;53;22;27
Speaker
kind of derive,

00;53;22;27 - 00;53;29;08
Speaker
or fortify their plans relative to some of these types of nuances that come up that you wouldn't normally know.

00;53;29;13 - 00;53;35;16
Speaker
Right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. We can learn from I know unfortunately, all the incidents since

00;53;35;16 - 00;53;40;21
Speaker
you know as well. So. Yeah. Well, I thought it was interesting. Like I said, when I was speaking to those,

00;53;40;21 - 00;53;42;26
Speaker
the officers from Maine and,

00;53;42;26 - 00;53;45;05
Speaker
you know, sitting around the table and just,

00;53;45;05 - 00;53;49;19
Speaker
you know, they're coming up with all these different themes, and I'm just thinking, Mark said that.

00;53;49;21 - 00;53;55;04
Speaker
Mark said that. Mark said that, you know, the same thing over and over. And if that's the case at any of these things and,

00;53;55;04 - 00;54;04;10
Speaker
you know, maybe that maybe there's some quick maybe there's some things that could really help in the future with, with a lot of these incidents. So, yeah, I think it's great. And I hope you do get out a bit more and share,

00;54;04;10 - 00;54;05;04
Speaker
more of this,

00;54;05;04 - 00;54;06;03
Speaker
more of the lessons learned.

00;54;06;03 - 00;54;12;13
Speaker
I think it was, very good presentation. And obviously, you know, this is just the discussion here, but I think,

00;54;12;13 - 00;54;15;00
Speaker
you know, when you presented it, it went over really, really well. So,

00;54;15;00 - 00;54;18;24
Speaker
yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.

00;54;18;24 - 00;54;25;01
Speaker
do you mind if I in case anyone is interested in reaching out, do you mind if I put up your LinkedIn?

00;54;25;03 - 00;54;30;19
Speaker
contact information here? Yeah, sure. No problem. I'll put this up here, folks. So. Yeah. So, Mark. Mark is there,

00;54;30;19 - 00;54;35;02
Speaker
it's just Mark Davison and on LinkedIn and, in case you're interested, or you have any,

00;54;35;02 - 00;54;37;13
Speaker
questions or maybe you're at an agency where,

00;54;37;13 - 00;54;39;22
Speaker
you know, you just want to be prepared for,

00;54;39;22 - 00;54;43;00
Speaker
potentially something happening in the future or, you know, training,

00;54;43;00 - 00;54;44;21
Speaker
advice or materials.

00;54;44;24 - 00;54;45;14
Speaker
Mark is,

00;54;45;14 - 00;54;52;15
Speaker
hopefully Mark is open to, to helping you out there a little bit, so which would be great. So, all right, Mark. Awesome. Well, look,

00;54;52;15 - 00;54;55;19
Speaker
I'm not sure where you're going to be next or if we're going to bump into each other at another conference.

00;54;55;19 - 00;54;56;23
Speaker
I'm not sure that you have in your schedule.

00;54;56;23 - 00;55;00;16
Speaker
Well, maybe you're going to go to Obpa next. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

00;55;00;16 - 00;55;02;07
Speaker
for sure. There. So, if you,

00;55;02;07 - 00;55;09;23
Speaker
I'll be there. If you're there. Yeah, I'll. I'll plan. I'll plan to be there. I've been I've sort of have a streak going, so I don't want to break my streak now. So,

00;55;09;23 - 00;55;10;17
Speaker
with you on that?

00;55;10;17 - 00;55;10;23
Speaker
yeah.

00;55;10;23 - 00;55;14;29
Speaker
For sure. Right. Yeah. Well, next week on this last week of wrestling. So,

00;55;14;29 - 00;55;23;03
Speaker
yeah. You got a commitment there. So, right on. Well, look, thank you so much. Do me a favor, hang back a bit, and then I'll come back,

00;55;23;03 - 00;55;26;15
Speaker
in a second. Sounds good. Thanks again. Thanks, Mark.

00;55;26;15 - 00;55;29;29
Speaker
thanks to everyone who's chimed in in the comments. And,

00;55;29;29 - 00;55;32;18
Speaker
I hope to see you soon. Have a good Thursday, everyone. Bye.