EP 100 | Gary Delaney | Geospatial Forensics

Join us for the milestone 100th episode of Forensics Talks on Thursday May 9, 2024, at 14:00 Eastern, where we welcome Gary Delaney, a seasoned Geospatial Forensic Expert Witness. With an extensive background beginning in the Royal Navy and spanning over two decades in geomatics and geodesy, Gary has become a pivotal figure in forensic geospatial analysis, particularly in criminal investigations. His expertise in managing high-stakes survey campaigns and developing the innovative "Loc8 Code" geocoding system has solidified his reputation. His work greatly assists law enforcement agencies in solving complex cases through precise geospatial technology. An elected Fellow of several prestigious institutes, Gary's episode titled "Geospatial Forensics" will delve into how geospatial technologies profoundly impact forensic science and law enforcement.

Originally Aired: May 9, 2024

Transcript

00;00;30;20 - 00;00;35;25
Speaker
Hey there everyone, welcome. It's Eugene, and we're back for another episode of, Forensics Talks here. So,

00;00;36;03 - 00;00;37;13
Speaker
today is,

00;00;37;13 - 00;00;42;07
Speaker
episode 100. So, I'm now into the three digits, which is pretty cool.

00;00;42;07 - 00;00;50;16
Speaker
And I want to say thanks to all the folks who, I've seen in the chat window regularly. They keep coming back, so I haven't scare them away just yet, which is great.

00;00;50;19 - 00;01;01;09
Speaker
And comments and great feedback. I know that people have been using these for, university, like lectures and things like that and have been referencing some of these talks, which is great.

00;01;01;09 - 00;01;12;08
Speaker
And, you know, I can give you just a little bit of background on how this all started. And really, it was just an idea to discuss some of the work that I was doing, and I thought I would invite some of my colleagues and friends that are doing similar work.

00;01;12;10 - 00;01;30;13
Speaker
But I realized after 30s that that was going to get pretty boring pretty fast. So, I thought, hey, let's just open it up to all areas of forensics and areas that are completely out of my wheelhouse. Just like our guest today. It's not my area of expertise, but its really fascinating what people are doing in so many different areas of forensics.

00;01;30;13 - 00;01;33;03
Speaker
And if you're a student and,

00;01;33;03 - 00;01;50;02
Speaker
you know, you're looking at different careers in forensics, that this is one avenue of, you know, looking at the different options that are out there. It's not always the traditional maybe lab work or DNA work or some of the things that are taught inside of school. And so hopefully this, will give you some ideas or some areas of interest.

00;01;50;04 - 00;01;59;18
Speaker
And so, yeah, look, I don't know, you know, so thinking about if I had to do some kind of a celebration for the hundredth episode, but I think just, we're going to continue on. We're going to continue doing,

00;01;59;18 - 00;02;04;21
Speaker
forensics talks, going forward, plenty of speakers, plenty of things to learn from. So yeah. Thank you again, everyone.

00;02;04;21 - 00;02;22;27
Speaker
Really appreciate it. And I'm happy to do these. I've learned a lot from all the guests and speakers that we've had here. Okay. We're going to get going. I can see people have been commenting already. So, we've got people from London. Hey, Ruthie. Welcome. kind. Hey, glad you're here, Mr. Goddard, as well. Excellent to see you here.

00;02;22;27 - 00;02;24;20
Speaker
So, let's get going.

00;02;24;20 - 00;02;42;04
Speaker
my guest today is Gary Delaney. And actually, I was in England not too long ago, and I was invited to the, like, a public safety event that they had. There was a two-day event where a lot of people were talking about different aspects of forensics, but mostly around, you know, terrestrial laser scanning.

00;02;42;06 - 00;02;58;13
Speaker
But Gary did a presentation there, and I just I really enjoyed his presentation. I thought it was super cool. some of the things he was talking about in some of the cases that he's been working on. And so that's, kind of how, he's here today. So, thank you to Marcus Rowe for putting that, on.

00;02;58;13 - 00;03;05;20
Speaker
And, you know, it's great to meet some of the people there, face to face. So, Gary's background,

00;03;05;20 - 00;03;24;12
Speaker
well, he's a seasoned geospatial expert, and he began his career in the 1980s and, as a naval officer and a specialist navigator. I mean, he's literally navigated through waters from the Atlantic to the, near Middle East, you know, mastering the art of precise positioning under, you know, different challenging conditions.

00;03;24;14 - 00;03;27;08
Speaker
And since transitioning sort of from the Navy,

00;03;27;08 - 00;03;46;10
Speaker
he's taught at various universities, lectured, and he's dedicated over 25 years to, you know, advancing geospatial applications in both land and marine domains, specializing in everything from GPS necess systems to advanced surveying techniques. And, through his presentation, I notice that, you know, he's applied his expertise in all kinds of different areas.

00;03;46;10 - 00;03;57;12
Speaker
So, some being just, you know, homicide cases right up to, you know, a very large scale, drug smuggling, pirating cases and things like that. So, I'm going to bring him in here.

00;03;57;12 - 00;03;59;01
Speaker
There he is. Scary. How are you?

00;03;59;06 - 00;04;08;10
Speaker
Good afternoon. how are you doing? And, very honored to be here on your 100th episode. Thank you for inviting me along. And hello to everybody watching in.

00;04;08;10 - 00;04;23;29
Speaker
Yeah, great. it's great that we could connect. And I'm glad that I had a chance to see your presentation. And, you know, just from watching you at, at the presentation, you know, I was just like, this guy knows what he's talking about. he's been on he's been around for a while, so I think he's seen a few things here and there.

00;04;23;29 - 00;04;37;26
Speaker
So that was. It was great. And I, it was great that it wasn't about just laser scanning tours. I actually was going to ask you about that because I, I have no idea. How did you get, connected there or get into that, whether through Marcus or who connected you?

00;04;38;14 - 00;05;11;03
Speaker
Well, as I mentioned before, I don't tend to put my name around too much in the sense that, here, especially criminal activity in Ireland is a small world. So, you don't really want to name to too much around, in relation to what you do. But at the same time, through various industry connections, you know, your name travels and because I was involved in the survey world, and survey instrumentation, people that would know, Marcus and knew me through that.

00;05;11;03 - 00;05;12;17
Speaker
And that's how that connection happened.

00;05;12;17 - 00;05;27;26
Speaker
well, let's start with, some of your background. I mean, you've got, you know, Navy and that sort of thing, but let's go back even before then. I mean, did you do your family have sort of a naval or military background or what got you involved initially with the Navy?

00;05;28;16 - 00;05;52;28
Speaker
No Navy, no military. All my family are aviation. And I got fed up listening to airplanes at the kitchen table having dinner, and I said, I've got to find some other way. And the Navy emerged from that. And that's not unusual in my in naval career, I suppose a lot of people go to see, you know, just on the hope that it will fulfill their requirements.

00;05;52;28 - 00;06;07;07
Speaker
And I actually started doing electrical engineering in, in college in Dublin. And, the labs were vital, and I got an invitation to become an officer in the Navy. So that seemed like a better idea at the time.

00;06;07;07 - 00;06;14;10
Speaker
Okay, so fun fact I started in electrical engineering, and what you just said is exactly the reason why I switched to aerospace engineering.

00;06;14;12 - 00;06;24;08
Speaker
So very interesting. I guess the labs are the killers for, for the people going through electrical. If you can get through the labs and you enjoy the labs, then you're okay. But. Yeah, that's very interesting.

00;06;24;08 - 00;06;33;12
Speaker
So, when you started with the Navy, was there a certain direction that you knew already, like you were heading into, or what was your progression like through there?

00;06;33;27 - 00;06;59;26
Speaker
Well, first of all, I was. I was inducted as, a seagoing or seaman officer, now called operations officer. So, I knew that I was going to be in the kind of bridge work, the navigation area, the management, ship management area of things. And of course, that's, joined up with the military aspect. So, I also understood that I would start in Ireland, start with the, with the army.

00;06;59;28 - 00;07;22;07
Speaker
So, you start training with the army and then, very shortly after that, I ended up with the Royal Navy in the UK training there and spent two years training there. And that was in the early 80s, which you can imagine, was a little bit difficult for an Irish person in the UK, but we were treated exceptionally well and learned very well as well, and spent some time on Royal Navy ships, getting experience.

00;07;22;07 - 00;07;37;01
Speaker
So, most of the experience then would be about navigation. So that was kind of the starting point to where I am now is the key aspect of any vehicle. I suppose safely getting it from A to B. And that's the definition of navigation.

00;07;37;01 - 00;07;46;02
Speaker
Yeah. But you also have surveying background. So, I mean like was that a conscious decision for you or did you kind of fall into it or was it something that you pursued on your own?

00;07;46;12 - 00;08;10;16
Speaker
Well, the whole idea of precisely positioning a ship or any vehicle or any device really kind of you know, came natural after being the navigator. I was the kind of guy that was the guy that broke the GPS trying to find out how to work. So, it interests me to go further into the electronic side of things, into the data formats and the analysis and all those kinds of things.

00;08;10;16 - 00;08;35;29
Speaker
So that, kind of that naturally took me to Nottingham University, where I did, precise positioning and navigation technology, and that was the technology side of things, which again introduced the survey element of things. So, when I left the Navy, which was after nearly 20 years, I actually started to be an agent for, fairly prominent, survey company, American Survey Company.

00;08;36;01 - 00;09;09;14
Speaker
And that kind of led me straight down the road of precise surveying and GPS and Gnss and all those kinds of things. So, what how I ended up into the forensic side is that literally, I have had my hands on every type of GPS. I've installed them in tractors for farmers to drive blind at night and deliberately for testing with, with, screens on their windows for, for precise, spreading of fertilizer, planting, seed planting, all that kind of stuff.

00;09;09;17 - 00;09;45;08
Speaker
I sold, supported and repaired and trained people in, surveying GPS, in GPS for GIS. I did marine GPS. So, every aspect of the performance of GPS I've seen in all the different domains. And I also then at one point was reselling Garmin devices so I could see it from the consumer perspective, which is a large part of what I do know, because it's true consumer devices that, the geospatial evidence comes in a lot of, a lot of cases.

00;09;45;08 - 00;10;09;16
Speaker
So I've amassed a lot of, kind of experience and knowledge about how these things work, how they break, how people use them, and what, traces left behind when they're used and, the electronic something side of things then, and, access to data, data sharing, all those kind of things are something that is come by experience as well.

00;10;09;16 - 00;10;33;16
Speaker
And every aspect of that I use, in what I do, from the simple act of extracting data from devices to making it into a map, to doing the analysis, to presenting it, then as evidence, which is, I suppose, 40 years nearly of experience from Navy to being a reseller and a trainer and all those kind of things right now.

00;10;33;16 - 00;10;58;11
Speaker
And it's, you know, I don't know whether people fall into forensics, but it's something that has just evolved for me. the GPS man, I get referred to, and I'm the guy can never get lost when he's going anywhere. I'll never be late. Be I supposed to know I didn't? So, yeah. So, I presume. well, I don't I don't presume anything.

00;10;58;13 - 00;11;11;28
Speaker
but, you know, some people go to college to do forensics, and literally my forensic expertise comes from, all the stuff that I did in a career since I left college.

00;11;11;28 - 00;11;19;29
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, GPS is I mean, you mentioned, you know, farming equipment there in vehicles. well, let's say people have them in their phones.

00;11;19;29 - 00;11;41;14
Speaker
They have them in their, you know, you know, just so many different devices. So, there's billions and billions of instruments out there that must have GPS. so, we'll talk about some of the problems, but I'd like to ask you just to help ground everybody on the basic system, the basic GPS system and how that works. And there was a graphic you sent me, and I'm just going to bring that up here, here.

00;11;41;14 - 00;11;52;14
Speaker
But could you give us just an outline of how these things work and maybe point out some of the areas that are important for what we're going to discuss, like their vulnerabilities and why?

00;11;53;01 - 00;12;19;00
Speaker
Yeah. So, I suppose the most important thing is that the calculation on merit of your position with GPS or Gnss nowadays is more popularly referred to Global Navigation Satellite Systems, which includes modern American GPS. So broadly, it's called Gnss. Nowadays it's based on satellite technology, dedicated satellite technology. And essentially if you have a GPS receiver, you have an electronic stopwatch.

00;12;19;02 - 00;12;44;00
Speaker
That's what you have. that electronic stopwatch measures the time it takes for a signal to get from the satellite to your GPS receiver. And because we know the speed of light, we can calculate speed by time equals distance. We can calculate distance. And simply by having that electronic stopwatch which needs use code correlation. So, all kinds of binary code matching and things like that going on there.

00;12;44;00 - 00;13;10;08
Speaker
But basically, a stopwatch, if you can calculate distances to three satellites at the same time, then you have a two-dimensional effect. And if you can do it for four or more, then you have three dimensional and upwards from there, a by dimensional we mean that we can calculate position and time and time is very, very important and it gets forgotten, but is a key element to evidence the vulnerabilities of all of this.

00;13;10;08 - 00;13;32;15
Speaker
Of course it's very readily usable. And, and everybody is using it. And to some extent, you know, it's presented as, being invaluable. So as a navigator, we're always I was always told later on that you never rely on one source of positioning information is always cross cross-checking. And as a surveyor, you do the same thing.

00;13;32;18 - 00;13;58;13
Speaker
So, we try in forensics to identify what the what the, the kind of vulnerabilities are and ensured in any analysis that we do that, those vulnerabilities are covered off, whether it be from a defense or a prosecution point of view. And the biggest vulnerability of GPS is that it travels a long distance. It's a microwave signal that travels at least 22,000km.

00;13;58;16 - 00;14;25;04
Speaker
And so, it is extremely weak by the time it gets to your electronic stopwatch, your, receiver. And if it's weak, then it could be interfered with very easily. And that's the crux of some of the things maybe, that we're going to talk about and how vulnerable we're also how if you if it's presented as evidence, some of the evidence may not be as reliable as we believe it to be.

00;14;25;07 - 00;14;39;23
Speaker
And you rightly said that GPS is ubiquitous, is everywhere. And that assumption is something that we need to conquer and advise about always and be careful about when we use positioning as evidence, geospatial positioning as evidence.

00;14;39;23 - 00;14;48;16
Speaker
what's I mean, obviously the basic principle of GPS or Gnss has been more or less the same for, you know, decades and decades.

00;14;48;23 - 00;15;00;13
Speaker
But what has been probably like the largest change in, you know, G.P.S. systems over the past, you know, ten, 20, 30 years is has there been anything that's really changed as a kind of the same?

00;15;00;28 - 00;15;23;26
Speaker
The accuracy. The potential accuracy has improved. That's number one. So, some people might remember the idea that where deliberate errors in GPS, what they call selective availability. So pre 2000 the year 2000 having a GPS that was good enough to navigate you on a road really didn't exist because the errors were so big that, it didn't support that.

00;15;23;29 - 00;15;52;00
Speaker
Except maybe if you were going across the desert would be suitable for marine navigation, obviously was the starting point. So that's number one. The accuracy has changed, but the proliferation of use is enormous. So again, it is ubiquitous in every form of thing that we might do. So therefore, as you said vehicles marine navigation, all those things in our phones, in our devices, in our watches, it is everywhere.

00;15;52;00 - 00;16;14;13
Speaker
So therefore, it leaves a very significant trace, which is largely reliable. But when it's used in a phone device, the positioning is being contributed to not just by DNS, but by other services, location services which can undermine the reliability, or the accuracy of the solution that might be presented in evidence. So that's something that we look at.

00;16;14;20 - 00;16;29;06
Speaker
So, the biggest thing is it's become very accurate. And the next thing is because it's become very accurate. It's ubiquitous has proliferated into every possible walk of life. and possible uses and possible devices.

00;16;29;06 - 00;16;41;09
Speaker
I mentioned the other day that I was driving in and just two days ago in the morning and on the radio, the first time I've ever heard anything like it said, you know, they brought up this, this thing about GPS attacks and GPS spoofing.

00;16;41;09 - 00;17;08;28
Speaker
And I'm like, well, great, I'm talking to Gary in two days. So, it's amazing that they brought this up and they were talking about it being used for, you know, in wars and things like this. But I guess there's, if I may break it up this way and you can whatever. If you tell me it's not a good way to go, but there's just sort of, natural or, I'll say, less, malicious things that happen with GPS that just, it's just the nature of maybe how it works, or maybe it's the, the devices that are being used or something.

00;17;08;28 - 00;17;26;23
Speaker
And then there's obviously the, the things that people do consciously to block jam or like whatever. So, can we talk about some of the things that could go wrong, like in some of the cases where, you know, it's not somebody doing something, it's just the nature of the device or whatever that's happening, like what kinds of things can happen?

00;17;26;26 - 00;17;28;11
Speaker
naturally, let's say

00;17;28;26 - 00;17;54;22
Speaker
So. Okay, so in terms of accuracy, we kind of rely on, GPS, Gnss to be precise. But obviously, when you get into, a crime scene, that precision has to be challenged in all kinds of ways. The average accuracy globally of your basic GPS receiver on enhanced on, corrected GPS is probably in the order of plus or -ten meters.

00;17;54;25 - 00;18;26;16
Speaker
That doesn't mean that it's plus or -ten meters all the time. But what? Even if it is plus or ten -ten meters, potentially. That's somebody the other side of a riverbank or a railway. therefore, not quite exact, obviously accessible to seen. So, these are, that's something that has to be considered and has to be considered in terms of the potential now generally, because we don't deal with a single example of a position or just one position, we're never just taking one.

00;18;26;23 - 00;18;55;09
Speaker
We have a whole series of positions. We perform a track or a route or whatever. They give us some sort of backup and some sort of reliance on what we're looking at. The other thing that is a thing called GPS rollover, and this is something that I've come across quite a bit. And GPS role at rollover has the potential not only to give you error in your GPS position, but it's fairly easily solved, but it also has the potential to affect timing because of rollover date and time.

00;18;55;09 - 00;19;24;25
Speaker
Rollover is about is the fact that the code that's used for the barn and binary correlation in the signal that these electronics, stopwatch rolls over are changes that every 1024 weeks. That's roughly 19 half years. And you know, we all know of the year to two K rollover. same idea. So, when the GPS is were built, they were built with the idea that, you know, someone would buy something new, or it won't be an issue.

00;19;24;25 - 00;19;53;14
Speaker
By the time we get to the first rollover, which was in 1999. And when that happens, obviously time starts again for the GPS receiver. So therefore, it reverts to 20 years earlier. A simple power reset will fix the GPS position, but it won't say fix the time. So, in one instance I had a case where, GPS receiver waypoints are very interesting waypoints.

00;19;53;17 - 00;20;11;05
Speaker
People will be familiar with waypoints because if you go fishing or hunting or whatever, you record a point that you might be of interest to you. And when you record that, not only do you have the coordinates, the GPS position, and maybe put your name on it or a name on it rather than a number, you also have a time and a date.

00;20;11;08 - 00;20;30;14
Speaker
The very fact that has been created from a kind of geospatial evidence or forensic point of view shows an intent which shows that you were either there or you intended to go there. What if the time of date is wrong? Obviously, when you're looking at these devices, you have a range of time of interest. What may well say, well, okay, that's too old.

00;20;30;17 - 00;21;08;03
Speaker
So, it didn't happen. What didn't happen in the time that I'm, that's of interest to me. And that actually was an issue in two cases in the last ten years for me, where if I hadn't checked the software version, if I didn't check manufacturers notices about rollovers and things like that, maybe we wouldn't have noticed it, and then we would have eliminated from the evidence several waypoints, points of interest that actually were crucial in the long, you know, you the important thing really is to understand that is produces data time.

00;21;08;03 - 00;21;37;08
Speaker
It's not system time, it's GPS part of the calculation. But the calculation runs from 1000 from 1 to 1024 weeks and then resets. And sometimes what happens is the software manager, manufacturer of the unit manufacturer will put a little bug fix, a little software fix that allows that to roll out for 2 or 3 extra years. So now you might we might have in our head 1999, 2019, 2039 there the rollover times.

00;21;37;08 - 00;21;55;26
Speaker
And if it hasn't happened then it's fine. What if there's a bug fix that gives you a 2- or 3-year rollover, and this only happens after 2 or 3 years. That even complicates the issue that has happened. And I believe it's something I haven't seen it myself on in infotainment systems, navigation systems of vehicles.

00;21;55;26 - 00;22;06;06
Speaker
But I believe that it is an issue now for older devices. And again, if you're extracting from vehicles, that's something that needs attention,

00;22;06;06 - 00;22;13;14
Speaker
So, for example, something that many people might be fairly common, or they've seen before, you know, just using their navigation system.

00;22;13;14 - 00;22;28;00
Speaker
And sometimes you're driving along and all of a sudden, you know, you're somewhere else, it jumps over to something and you're like, what the heck is going on? This thing has no idea what it's doing. is this just a case of weak signal, interrupted signal, or, you know, something like that?

00;22;28;05 - 00;22;51;02
Speaker
Yeah, well, it depends on the location. So, we have all kinds of environmental. I tell people regularly that is a measurement device that looks like, a voltmeter on a meter. You put the two contacts on to the end of the wire, and you measure voltage, and it's always the same. Yeah. GPS doesn't do that because the environment is critical.

00;22;51;02 - 00;23;14;29
Speaker
So, for instance, in Auburn Canyon, as they're, as they, as they say, in city areas with large buildings, you can have reflected signal. And because we're dealing with timing, this, electronic stopwatch, if the signal doesn't come directly to your receiver, it gets bounced off glass surfaces, reflective surfaces, and therefore it introduces this thing called multipath.

00;23;15;02 - 00;23;39;29
Speaker
Multipath introduces position errors. Now, if the order of error you're talking about is 20 or 30m or 40m from one side of the street to the other, or maybe an adjacent street, which would account for that. And that that does happen. And that can happen in, in, rural areas as well, where you have lot of trees. And again, because the signal is weak, it doesn't like those, like physical obstructions.

00;23;40;02 - 00;24;07;12
Speaker
So, you can have that kind of thing going on and multipath could be. But that's again because in a vehicle, for instance, your traffic alarm generally it rectifies itself. And from a forensic point of view, if you're looking at a stream of data and you're mapping data and you see this 1 or 2, strange, positions that don't feed with the rest of them, then, you know, we can we can put that down to the Gaussian curve.

00;24;07;17 - 00;24;23;20
Speaker
And the fact that most of them are good GPS sat nav, as they're probably referred to, the ones we use and kind of do funny things. There's a bit of filtering going on there to say, well, you should be on a road rather than, you know, in the buildings, so we'll fix that. And that goes on as well.

00;24;23;22 - 00;24;45;20
Speaker
You know, you stop at traffic lights, and you find that the vehicle, or the track marker on your screen goes past the traffic lights. What's behind us? Oh. He stopped. I've got to go back and meet him. That's just filtering that goes on by manufacturers to make things look better. That's presentation. But that doesn't tend to present itself in in what you might extract from, from the device.

00;24;45;24 - 00;24;49;05
Speaker
in a case like I don't know, let's say it's a homicide case or something.

00;24;49;05 - 00;25;09;05
Speaker
You're trying to track a suspect and they have their phone or for example, you know, you're driving your car that the actual device like I've always heard, for example, L1 like an L1 class L1 device in a phone. how is that? Is that the same sort of device that would be in most vehicles, or how are the different classes, of G.P.S. devices, sort of.

00;25;09;13 - 00;25;10;03
Speaker
oh, different.

00;25;10;03 - 00;25;44;10
Speaker
so. Well, what is a frequency now? 1200 megahertz. Yeah. So, if you think of your mobile phone somewhere around the 900MHz. So, it's in that microwave band. And L1 is your, your standard frequency for GPS. Since stay one, it's an ordinary, GPS receiver on L1. If you say if you have L2 in there as well, then you're into second frequency, which GPS always had had most of us don't have access to positioning, correct positioning from that because it's coded for military use.

00;25;44;12 - 00;26;03;29
Speaker
but the combination of the two gives us better accuracy. And we'll be gotten into surveying. We're using the combination of both L1 and L2 for phase measurements. So instead of measuring time, we still measure time. What you're into measuring the phase of the signal as a receiver, which gives you a much better accuracy down to centimeter level.

00;26;04;01 - 00;26;31;19
Speaker
So, your ordinary phone. But now most phones now have not only L1 and L2 but that's GPS. But they also have Glonass which is Russian GPS. And then also Galileo which is European G.P.S.. And they may well have Badoo, which is Chinese G.P.S.. So instead of saying 4 or 5 satellites, you're saying seven satellites. Now, more satellites doesn't mean more accuracy because, you know, with triangulation, which are which are distance measurements.

00;26;31;19 - 00;27;05;22
Speaker
You need good angles, same as basic navigation, or resection. Anybody that knows what uses a compass on land navigation, you know that you need about 30 degrees between your measurements, your resections to get a decent angle. Same thing with scanning and all those the all the principles are they don't they don't change. but however, you got redundancy, and you know, where you got physical or physical, masking and things like that, that redundancy of those extra satellites will give you more reliability.

00;27;05;25 - 00;27;39;25
Speaker
but one of the great things that happens when you have more satellites is that spoofing and jamming are much more difficult to do. they're the ones that become issues, you know, in a military environment. But jamming is something that, because, again, the signal is weak. it's very easy to distract your GPS receiver and say, because it's whispering compared to everything else, if you shoulder it with the GPS signal or another signal that just blasts out everything, then it's distracted, and it can't work out position.

00;27;39;28 - 00;28;05;28
Speaker
What if you want to spoof it? Much more difficult because you have to mimic the signal rebroadcast to mimic the signal. But that definitely is a military. type application. And it's something that's, very prominent right now. And in the Baltic and, various other places. where, Russians might be involved at the moment. And that's something very significant.

00;28;06;01 - 00;28;24;07
Speaker
So, if you were to categorize the different things that people do, there would be. Okay. So, one is to say, hey, I'm not here. I'm here. Like just telling it you're someplace else. So that's one thing you could do. But can you also do can you do anything, for example, with time, which says, well, I'm here, but I wasn't here at this time.

00;28;24;07 - 00;28;26;23
Speaker
I was here at a different time or something. Or is that harder to do?

00;28;27;06 - 00;28;57;00
Speaker
Well, again, because timing is key part of the signal. So, if you do anything with the signal, if you if your jammers, you just don't have anything. And that's very easy to spot if you're downloading data from a device for, for evidence and there's nothing there, then you start thinking about what was really going on. And, you know, a basic, low cost, $5, device inside in your vehicle, in the cigarette lighter can help you jam.

00;28;57;07 - 00;29;22;26
Speaker
What people do forget, though, is if that's inside in your vehicle, plugged into the cigarette lighter and your antenna for your GPS is outside, then it may not have the impact that you expect. However, it's there. Used mostly commercially for commercial most vehicle commercial vehicles, as you know, would be tracked nowadays. Where are you? Like? Why were you late to get this customer?

00;29;22;28 - 00;29;45;02
Speaker
you know, can you get back here for another delivery, etc., etc. and people don't like being tracked when they're taken to sneaking a sneaky break on the side of the road. Or maybe other things. so, the people will use jammers. And, you know, we've all heard, to my GPS didn't work. So, without understanding that people may well accept with a device, a camera would take that onto an industrial scale.

00;29;45;02 - 00;30;08;01
Speaker
Something like that might be only over a quarter of, what, very marginally will affect your vehicle. Maybe a vehicle beside you, but take that into 10 or 20W, on a military scale, and you could do serious damage. And when you're doing that, you mentioned timing. Obviously, you're blocking out timing. So what? He uses timing. Lots of things.

00;30;08;01 - 00;30;45;05
Speaker
He was timing. So, all your cell transmissions, mobile phone masts, as we call them here in Europe, all those transmissions are timed to a GPS bank transaction, international banking exchanges, all those things are timed with GPS. So, it has happened. It's happened in London. It's happened elsewhere. You park a vehicle outside a bank or an exchange or an airport where it's even more critical and you dab GPS, you may not, you know, there is lots of subsidiary and secondary systems would help aircraft land.

00;30;45;05 - 00;31;12;06
Speaker
For instance, but the timing will be shattered. so, timing then, if you're into buying and selling shares and you don't have exact timing attached, that you could potentially when millions and transfer millions in microseconds because GPS timing has an effect. So, there's a commercial value in jamming as well. So that's jamming relatively easy. Don't because the signal's weak.

00;31;12;08 - 00;31;42;15
Speaker
but the next one that would be spoofing where you have to take a local, like coded GPS signal. That signal and make you a receiver believe and seeing a real signal. But the position, the almanac, the readings have changed. So, they put you put the device on the vehicle in a completely different location in the marine area, navigation worlds and probably in road navigation.

00;31;42;17 - 00;32;06;29
Speaker
you kind of look and say, well, I know something has gone wrong here because says I mod 22nd Street when I'm actually on 19 Street, and I know I am because I can see the signs. So that's obvious. I did marine navigation, air navigation, as I said earlier, where we're taught from day one to use backup systems to cross-reference between different systems, it's obvious that we're, that that something is strange is happening.

00;32;06;29 - 00;32;32;16
Speaker
What if it's an unmanned ballistic missile or other missile that it doesn't know it's been spoofed? If it's a drone and we know all we've heard a lot about drones and drone munitions nowadays, they don't know if they're being spoofed. And sometimes military pilots who really don't have the time to be cross-checking their position, they're totally relying on their instruments.

00;32;32;18 - 00;32;55;24
Speaker
They can be spoofed into an area where they become targetable, whereas otherwise they won't. So spoofing is a big deal. in the normal criminal world, is it possible, you know, if we're talking about freezing forensic evidence, stuff like that? Well, it is it's not beyond the value of, drug cartels and people like that nowadays. To do that, what's the value?

00;32;55;26 - 00;33;15;23
Speaker
The value is if you jam a G.P.S., you say, okay, well, they jabbed it. So that's kind of nefarious in itself. We just need to prove that. What if they present themselves as being somewhere else entirely? That's now a difficult piece of evidence that we have to counter from, from either a prosecution point of view or we could use from a defense point of view.

00;33;15;26 - 00;33;41;26
Speaker
So, all of that is possible, and it's possible with the piece of software and a transmitter. so, yeah, it's easy now, you know, you can progress that, what I've seen most in my career and in the from the forensic point of view is simulation, GPS simulation. So, you're not broadcasting, though. So, the GPS receiver is not receiving information over the air.

00;33;41;28 - 00;34;11;08
Speaker
What it is instead doing is it may be receiving information or a transmitting device is receiving information from a software device, which is making itself look like a GPS, and said that it got data over a cable, over a communication link, which is presenting itself to someone else and saying, look where I am at. That look where I may be not actually where a vessel or an aircraft or a car is, and that can be done with a laptop, a cable and a communication device.

00;34;11;10 - 00;34;33;12
Speaker
so, when you're talking about tracking vehicles and tracking aircraft and tracking chips, that's very easy to do. How do you recognize that from a forensic point of view, you can be it can be recognized reasonably well if you're at sea and you steer a course, I'm going to say, or naught 000 degrees, the ship rarely will actually achieve 000 degrees.

00;34;33;12 - 00;34;56;25
Speaker
Second by second, you'll have a little bit of your left and right of that. And what if your dad is coming back with 00000000? You start looking inside of something a bit strange about here. We need to look at this more. So does that kind of all that kind of thing that goes on. And if we started this conversation earlier with the assumption GPS is brilliant, it always gets me where I need to go.

00;34;56;28 - 00;35;18;15
Speaker
Yeah, and that's fine. And the occasion that, as you say, Eugene, it shows me in the wrong street or something like that, well, we can live with that. What if we have to go into court and someone presents those these things that I'm talking about to us, then we're now in a difficult situation where the whole reliability of evidence gets pulled into question.

00;35;18;17 - 00;35;44;18
Speaker
And that's not something that anybody that's looking at or listening or, viewing today is not already used to. What, what, what I would like to champion or what I'm trying to champion is the assumption that because this is perfect, and in the days, in my days of training people on idol, maybe 2000 people have put through survey training with GPS, QGis, agriculture, all those things.

00;35;44;20 - 00;36;12;06
Speaker
The first thing I always have to do is convince people that is not always going to give them exactly the same result, and that there is potential for errors, and they need to be aware of those. And that's very difficult. If somebody is coming to, you know, from coming through the summer point of view, point to GPS, as you know, from a different industry or a different perspective, it's very different convince people that it's more than just pressing the button to see the, the variability in the performance and the reliability.

00;36;12;06 - 00;36;14;13
Speaker
Can you talk about some of the cases?

00;36;14;20 - 00;36;38;13
Speaker
I know you presented some things, like the larger cases where there was, you know, smuggling, pirating. I know there was a homicide case you worked on where you were commended and whatever. So, I don't want to say too much about some of these. I'll let you off or whatever, but, perhaps, maybe some of the maybe just talk about in general, like what's some of the difficulties or the challenges were in these cases and what may have happened.

00;36;38;15 - 00;36;51;07
Speaker
yeah. if it was, you know, exactly what some of the things you're talking about, whether they're spoofing involved or with somebody saying, no, no, I was here. We were actually here. We weren't where you think we were or something like that, but yeah. Well, what are some of the cases you can talk about?

00;36;51;11 - 00;37;13;07
Speaker
Yeah. So, from a drugs point of view, a drugs importation point of view. And it's no different here in Europe than it is in North America. Canada and everywhere else. There is a large volume of material coming in to being imported, and it's coming in in all kinds of different ways, and no expense has been spared.

00;37;13;09 - 00;37;38;16
Speaker
And it used to be the case that somebody might buy a yacht. And navigate it across to Atlantic. And in one case, those people have never navigated the boat before. And they were told, here's a GPS, never use that. And then there's a tracker on board. Nobody'll sees you or find. But the guys have never use GPS like a lot of jammers.

00;37;38;16 - 00;38;01;20
Speaker
So, they were afraid to put out the GPS jammer in case the GPS would work afterwards, and they would totally rely on them. Okay. And these guys, after several days at sea, were about to give up. They're about to dump the cocaine. and so will persist. And eventually they kind of with seasickness. It's built diesel and diesel on the off.

00;38;01;22 - 00;38;24;04
Speaker
inside is not. And I smell. And if you're not used to going to sea and all the rest. So, these guys were practically ready to give up. You know what? All, part of that was the GPS. And. Okay, it didn't affect any of the evidence we had. The evidence was good evidence. Some evidence, by the way, doesn't come necessarily from being on board directly on board.

00;38;24;04 - 00;38;51;25
Speaker
Some evidence comes from communications devices, satellite communications, and those, satellite communications satellites, low-Earth orbit satellites nowadays triangulate and calculate position as well. So, some of that comes up as a good cooperation, intercontinental cooperation between agencies to get access to that data. It doesn't reside on board a vessel or in a vehicle. It resides in a server somewhere else.

00;38;51;28 - 00;39;16;16
Speaker
And we have to get access to that. And we are readily available and usable. Then you have the situation where for all kinds of reasons, mostly because of the country that you're going to, which is conspicuous, where you're starting your voyage from, you don't want the rest of the world to see that's where you are. So, you use simulated GPS.

00;39;16;19 - 00;39;45;07
Speaker
and that's, effectively a computer which generates a course in speed and position updates, sends it over a cable to a communication device, which is sent off to somewhere else. the other thing that is, though, there's we have this idea of it's referred to as semantic position. And this is something people should be very much aware of if they're if they're extracting position information from mobile phone devices and from vehicles and not so many vehicles nowadays.

00;39;45;07 - 00;40;17;16
Speaker
But I can imagine that it's something that is there or thereabouts. Semantic position is an inferred position based on maybe a Wi-Fi connection. I had to do a Wi-Fi design course recently. The last two years I did a Wi-Fi design course. And what's Gary Delaney doing in life outside, of course, understand positioning possibilities from Wi-Fi. And, you know, the potential ranges, the reliability, the signal strength, all that kind of stuff.

00;40;17;18 - 00;40;41;10
Speaker
And in some mobile phone devices, the position that is presented to you is a semantic or inferred position depending on your choices. You know the way. Now you can choice. Choose whether you're using GPS or other location services, whether it might be, of course, cell ID, which people will be familiar with, which is less accurate depending on where you are, of course.

00;40;41;12 - 00;41;04;18
Speaker
What add to that Wi-Fi now. So, in other words, if you're outside the big popular store, you're driving past the big popular store. You happen to be, above the traffic lights when your phone sees the Wi-Fi with the name on it from that store, which are certain big providers of International Motors know exactly where that is, then they can infer your stop there.

00;41;04;20 - 00;41;46;08
Speaker
So, your insight may maybe correctly, maybe incorrectly. And that is something that I have come across. And homicide case and it's something that you have to deal with. It can be very useful. What obviously, you have to be conscious that it's not the primary, evidence that you want. You know, you. Yeah. So, so semantic positioning because phones are paired now with infotainment systems and vehicles, you need to be certain that any data that's coming out of, it that you might extract from an infotainment system is, is GPS.

00;41;46;11 - 00;42;04;25
Speaker
That's a good place to be because we know we know exactly what we're dealing with. But if for any reason it's sharing location services, you know, Wi-Fi or cell ID or otherwise that you need to be aware of that. And maybe that's not as obvious as it could be or should be. And that's something that we need to be very conscious of now.

00;42;04;26 - 00;42;27;26
Speaker
Also. And I have I haven't I have trained in, vehicle infotainment system extraction and all that kind of stuff with Berlin in the States, but, I haven't actually used it in evidence yet, but I'm very conscious of it, of the possibilities associated, also conscious of the possibilities for, for getting good results where otherwise you might get results.

00;42;27;28 - 00;42;33;27
Speaker
Yeah. but that, that is something that, is there to be dealt with

00;42;33;27 - 00;42;48;00
Speaker
Yeah. I've seen a lot of these systems. Well, especially when it's like a trucking company or something like this. It's, you know, they, they want to keep track of all their people or whatever. So, I've run across some of these before where, you know, we have a GPS and it's, you know, every second or so.

00;42;48;00 - 00;43;09;02
Speaker
So, you speed, and position and all this sort of thing can be determined. but it's an interesting point. I think you alluded to this too. You know, it's not just about the numbers that you're getting. It's about the errors that you have to try and figure out, which is maybe a little bit more difficult to, to determine, you know, just because the GPS says, you know, this is where it is.

00;43;09;04 - 00;43;13;21
Speaker
Yeah. You don't know exactly. You know, what the timing and speed might may actually be, in truth.

00;43;13;21 - 00;43;44;09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So, you get you get, you know, your extracted data as a series of coordinates which place a point on a map. But how? Well, how are they generated accuracy. What reliability? again, this all goes back to, you know, again, why have why am I in this? Because I think that way. Because from day one, in the navigation side of things, a single, position fix from one source was never enough.

00;43;44;09 - 00;44;05;14
Speaker
It had to be backed up with something else and in, say, in the same way, when people are surveying, you know, a single measurement is never enough. It has to be backed up with multiple measurements. But also, you know, we had this scenario a couple of weeks ago, enclosures and networks and all those things are vital. And it's all about triangulation.

00;44;05;21 - 00;44;28;23
Speaker
And that doesn't change. And if you if you backed it up with 2 or 3, individual sources, that's there. so, when you're looking at and when I look at a latitude and longitude or grid reference, put on a piece of paper, I immediately ask, what reference datum was that associated? Where did you know what datum, what map can I put that on without transferring it?

00;44;28;24 - 00;45;00;19
Speaker
And 84 people would be familiar with World Geodetic System 1984, but not every map around the world, is based on that. I did I worked on the case again drugs case in in Seychelles archipelago go very old mapping. we'll have this located kilometers from where they actually where so resolving that latitude and longitude on that you see on a paper does come from a GPS receiver actually, to an actual spot that is meaningful on a map.

00;45;00;19 - 00;45;26;10
Speaker
Recharge is another consideration. The second thing I look for after datum is then what generated how, how was it generated and what was the reliability of that. And do I have a second or third, or a continuous stream of data that proves a course and a speed, or a detention or a dynamics? The dynamics are part of the geospatial evidence and dynamics could be very useful.

00;45;26;10 - 00;45;56;21
Speaker
Again, in, especially in the marine side of things, because we could look at how vessels are interacting with the weather is that normal? Is it not normal? Are they, slowing speed for long periods of times? Why might that be? What might that be beside what our vessels or might be working stuff that's in the water and all those things that if you get repeatable information, not single point but repeatable information, then you can start inferring certain things from lots.

00;45;56;21 - 00;45;57;28
Speaker
a question.

00;45;57;28 - 00;46;17;15
Speaker
So, you're testifying at trial, and I'm just wondering if there has been any sort of memorable moments about, you know, your testimony. Are there any difficult questions that you get asked or their questions that regularly come up, you know, to you saying, oh, Gary, you know, it's the opposition or something is trying to say something different.

00;46;17;15 - 00;46;26;14
Speaker
But yeah. Just curious about your general thoughts on testifying with, to geospatial accuracy and that sort of thing.

00;46;26;26 - 00;46;53;08
Speaker
Yeah. So, the first thing that's always a matter of concern, especially in marine world and happens on land if you have international boundaries goes by is jurisdiction. So, to prove that something was imported, you have to show that the GPS receiver actually entered into your area or the national area of jurisdiction. So, you have territorial waters with contiguous areas, all those kinds of things offshore, and you have landowners on shore.

00;46;53;08 - 00;47;13;09
Speaker
So that's the first thing that you prove. And you know that that's combination of different things, legislation in relation to where those boundaries are specified, coordinates for those boundaries. And then the GPS in relation to that. So that's always something that has to be proven. Well sorry not always. If you're in the middle of the desert somewhere and there's no languages are not important.

00;47;13;09 - 00;47;34;14
Speaker
But in the marine world it comes up quite a bit. The second thing that is, people will always poker GPS because everyone could relate to the fact that the GPS didn't work, or it's got property to the wrong place. Yeah. so, everyone has that kind of story, so throw that into the mix. certainly, you can try to start to undermine.

00;47;34;17 - 00;47;59;16
Speaker
But in one case, we have positioning from iridium. Iridium, us, low-Earth orbit satellites. Iridium positioning isn't very well, it's more accurate now. But in this particular case, we were talking about one plus or -1 to 2km. And because why was it useful? It was useful because we had much more accurate GPS over long periods of time.

00;47;59;18 - 00;48;33;19
Speaker
And we could see the progression of iridium with that. So, we can infer the accuracy of a and you could start relating the communications to a person because it was in the same place or related to GPS in the same place, time and space or all those things. So, in the cold case and it was very late on a Friday afternoon, you can imagine that a speed calculated from a positioning source that is plus or -one kilometer can be in interstellar type speeds.

00;48;33;22 - 00;49;00;02
Speaker
Yeah. And at that point, you know, somebody suggested that we made up, the defense. This case suggested that we made, a major error in the calculation of speed. We should have done better, and we should have used the Mark Saint Hilaire method. And the map central error method is actually a method for presenting, position differences calculated from celestial from astral navigation.

00;49;00;02 - 00;49;25;18
Speaker
So instead of trying to present a distance to the sun on a chart, you present different differences between what you expected and what you actually calculate. Mark Saint elaborated. You didn't. The defense lawyer didn't realize that I taught celestial navigation, so we were able to put a hole in that fairly quickly. but certainly, they were those kinds of things.

00;49;25;18 - 00;49;46;26
Speaker
So, you have to be navigation if you're if its navigation related, having a background is useful when positioning and then in relation to how the hell can you take something on the surface of the globe centered on the first be prepared piece of paper. And then you get into the whole idea of projections, coordinates, datum, wgs84 and stuff like that.

00;49;47;00 - 00;50;14;19
Speaker
And the other the kind of things that get poked at and ultimately, whether it be, at sea, in the air or land, you know, accuracy and the reliability of the accuracy is always something that's questioned, especially if there's a lot of the line and, in, big cases that are big drug cartel cases, all of those things will be no more than any other element of forensics.

00;50;14;21 - 00;50;20;22
Speaker
will be question. So, it's useful to have a background, rather than just presenting

00;50;20;22 - 00;50;30;05
Speaker
Let's take a couple of questions here. just some, questions that came up from before. I, I just want to take some of them here. And, folks, if you have any questions, just go ahead and pop them in and I'll see how many we can get in here.

00;50;30;08 - 00;50;44;08
Speaker
Nicholas was asking about, other things that affect the GPS. So solar storms and things like that, and then accuracy. I'm going to guess that the fewer, satellites you can pick up, then the worse it's going to be.

00;50;45;13 - 00;51;09;29
Speaker
Yeah. So? So solar flares and, solar storms doing, affect GPS, but it wouldn't be in the kind of arc that that would the influence there would mostly be in the in-size positioning survey. We're talking about centimeters generally. Yeah. Unless it's midday on the equator, in which case we might be talking about meters where you're nearest to the song, but generally and there's an 11-year cycle.

00;51;09;29 - 00;51;24;20
Speaker
So, it's very, very predictable or more or less predictable for solar flares. So, it is a consideration. it wouldn't be a huge consideration. except it varies specific zones for, for this, for this area.

00;51;24;20 - 00;51;47;09
Speaker
So, you know, you mentioned triangulation is important. So is it fair to say that having, to having ten, signals or ten, satellites that are very, very well spread out, let's say, and gives you a really good triangulation is much better than having, you know, 20 sort of in the same direction. And if you have a very limited angle or something like that, is that fair to say?

00;51;47;09 - 00;51;48;18
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah.

00;51;48;18 - 00;52;12;08
Speaker
So, and sometimes not always, you can get a measure of that in proper dilution of precision or position. Dilution of precision. People might have seen that phrase used up. And if you can get a measure of that from the GPS is useful to present on as part of your evidence. to do that again with a moving object, you get reliability from the repeatability of the position along the track and so on.

00;52;12;11 - 00;52;16;00
Speaker
So that kind of helps you, with respect to that.

00;52;16;00 - 00;52;31;19
Speaker
we have another question here from Mike. Mike, welcome. he's asking, do you see, any use of vehicle? I guess that's telematics, Wi-Fi, GPS and fire investigation other than an obvious GPS or Wi-Fi handshakes, acquisition of suspect and or victim?

00;52;32;07 - 00;53;03;25
Speaker
I haven't come across that, work. But what comes to mind immediately is indoor positioning is an emerging, thing, which is useful for firefighting in itself, but also the idea that devices, and people working in areas can be triangulated and positioned indoors, and that can be very useful, then for, for, for investigation. I haven't seen that happen yet, but I can imagine that something that is on the way.

00;53;03;25 - 00;53;15;23
Speaker
Gary, I was going to ask you about, like, research. I mean, you were teaching, for some time at some of the universities at Cork, for example, and lecturing and things like that. I want to see if I can bring that image up here, but it's this one here.

00;53;15;27 - 00;53;26;29
Speaker
So just with reference to you doing testing, of different instruments or research, there was this instrument here and I was kind of fascinated with this one. So, what is this your or what are you showing here?

00;53;27;04 - 00;53;57;02
Speaker
So, this is a road survey I did in, one, 2014 or thereabouts. use it to, to basically detect the volume of jamming systems that were used in vehicles on Irish roads. And it's a 3- or 4-day survey. driving around Irish roads, detecting signals, jamming signals. So, the orange light you see there, there's actually two lights, which is an indication of a for something on the GPS frequency.

00;53;57;04 - 00;54;20;05
Speaker
And the fact that there's two indicates that it's, getting stronger. And as we get closer to the vehicle, it, increases vertical number of lights, vertical. And what we found in that survey was quite a lot of commercial vehicles. No, no surprise, I guess. And we've talked about it earlier, a lot of commercial vessels or sorry vehicles had little jamming devices on them.

00;54;20;05 - 00;54;42;01
Speaker
And I don't know whether you have the same, phrase with the man with the white, the man with the van, the white van, those kind of people around the place. it can be just to avoid being tracked, what it can be for other nefarious reasons. which, may or may not be obvious. Immediately obvious.

00;54;42;01 - 00;55;06;24
Speaker
But, yeah, it was mostly commercial vehicles. We saw the, the presence of jamming devices. And in that case, driving CLO as you got close to the vehicle, the number of large lights increased. and we could see we had a GPS device with a measuring signal. You could see the signal strength of the GPS disappear.

00;55;06;26 - 00;55;09;20
Speaker
And it was very obvious what we were looking at.

00;55;09;22 - 00;55;13;19
Speaker
you keep telling me that these instruments are really cheap and fairly low cost or whatever.

00;55;13;19 - 00;55;30;17
Speaker
And I was thinking there was somebody somewhere, you know, making these intricate devices that were blocking signals and things like that. But it doesn't sound like it's, all that difficult. and, you know, if you can buy an instrument that can also detect who's actually jamming the signals, which is, which is really curious to me. And

00;55;30;17 - 00;56;01;24
Speaker
Kronos, make, devices to detect that of vehicles going in and out of airports and seaports. Because we talked about earlier that the potential to, job GPS and remove timing, because timing for all kinds of communications is very important. So that's very it is safety critical. And so many big international airports will have a detector at entrance.

00;56;01;24 - 00;56;03;16
Speaker
Points to that for jamming.

00;56;03;24 - 00;56;18;10
Speaker
Interesting. Here let me get let me get. We just got a few more. And then we're going to wrap up in a little bit. But kind regards. The GPS fixing your experiences are an average time this takes. Or is it just so variable that you can't put a number near it? So, I guess getting a fix for GPS.

00;56;18;22 - 00;56;41;11
Speaker
So, on codes what they call a cold start. So, starting your GPS receiver in a new position several hundred kilometers from where the last was, or just after purchasing can take 2 or 3 minutes because it needs to download the almanac, which has all the codes and all the satellites. So, we can do it's, it's, electronic stopwatch calculation.

00;56;41;13 - 00;57;10;21
Speaker
So that could be, you know, reasonably slow. if you're moved a short distance and it's within a couple of days of the last position, you're actually within ten, 15 seconds. Nowadays, though, and that's all down to the almanac nowadays on a mobile phone device that the almanac can be fed using the internet directly into your phone, so it doesn't have to wait to download it, it just fed into it.

00;57;10;24 - 00;57;37;01
Speaker
Automatic is where each satellite is in space, and the code that it's presenting and the cycle it is in the code and also has to be fed into your GPS receiver or updated GP's receiver so that can calculate positional values in the first couple of seconds of a GP's calculation, it tends to be least accurate. So, you know, you could be talking about 15 20m and then it'll refine itself over seconds.

00;57;37;03 - 00;57;53;17
Speaker
So, Caltex slow calculation short time after last used in a position not too far from last used. Happens fairly quickly. And then mobile phone devices. There is no delay because the almanac is fed.

00;57;53;17 - 00;57;55;13
Speaker
I got a question here from Chris.

00;57;55;13 - 00;58;02;24
Speaker
Hey, Chris. Welcome. is Genesis universally available across the globe? Are the number of viewable satellites reduced towards the poles?

00;58;02;24 - 00;58;28;14
Speaker
low-Earth orbit satellites, communication satellites traditionally were over the equator. So, they were directional and, they were geostationary, so they had to be over the equator, which they're global. So, there's no reduction over the globe. So that's what gives us this global quality. Gnss, all the, all the providers. So, we're talking about American Navistar GP's, the original we're talking about Galileo.

00;58;28;14 - 00;58;43;27
Speaker
European GPS was now fully operational. We're talking about Glonass with the Russian. And we're not talking about BeiDou, which is them thereabouts in operation. They're all global services. So, all readily available codes readily available, all usable. But they all can be denied if need be.

00;58;43;27 - 00;58;57;00
Speaker
So, Gary, what is next for you? I mean, you've been doing a lot of work using doing other things going on. Are you working on any just like cases right now? Is that pretty much you're doing. Do you have other digital projects on the side? What can you tell us about what you're working on?

00;58;57;06 - 00;59;14;20
Speaker
Yeah. So, I two cases at the moment. and you know yourself it takes a while to get the investigation or analysis done, to get a statement and a report done. So, we have that going on with some of them due in court, during this year, maybe early next year, so that that's,

00;59;14;20 - 00;59;24;29
Speaker
what I would say to you is because of the prominence of, the crimes and because of the provenance and proliferation of GPS.

00;59;25;02 - 00;59;48;28
Speaker
Now, something that was once every couple of years is now once every quarter, in terms of my effort. so that's number one. that's going on all the time. I still keep my hand in with surveying. I have the I rent out G.P.S. equipment, and I handle data for people. So, I'm still conscious of where, viewing on a daily basis how G.P.S. is performing.

00;59;49;04 - 01;00;00;00
Speaker
So that's going on. But my aim right now is to get a course, in a university here in Ireland, set up to teach what we're talking about. Geospatial

01;00;00;00 - 01;00;08;14
Speaker
Right. That's excellent. Yeah. That's a that's a great idea. I've never really, I mean, I've heard people talk about GPS, but having it in a course I think would be a great idea.

01;00;08;14 - 01;00;36;14
Speaker
I don't think there's anything out there like that. Or is there a do you know of anything that's out there right now? No, no, no, it's as I said, it's accepted and has been accepted that if it was then that's it. It's it is what it is. But I hopefully I've managed to get across the vulnerabilities and the, the vulnerabilities in relation to evidence, today and maybe, hopefully will get people to think about next week and see how we can get on with that.

01;00;36;16 - 01;00;57;21
Speaker
Let's, let's do this. I've got, folks, I'm going to I'm going paste the, in the chat window here. This is, Gary's, global positioning intelligence, website. And we were laughing before because it's, g point. And for some people, that means something different to, to. But he's got some information here. And there's also a brochure.

01;00;57;21 - 01;01;16;07
Speaker
So, if you click on this link that's right here and that brochure will take you here. So global positioning intelligence and there's some other information. he's also, got a good article here. I'm going to paste this one into the chat window as well. But this is on LinkedIn. And so, he's, he's got a number of articles actually.

01;01;16;07 - 01;01;42;10
Speaker
It looks at actually it says here 39 articles. That's all. Yeah. Some of them are commercially focused, rather than, gen of general interest. So, yeah, that this one is particularly kind of feeds into the forensic, the geospatial forensics. And in terms of identifying the provenance, the, the accuracy, the reliability of data, for all kinds of purposes, including for, for evidence.

01;01;42;17 - 01;01;57;15
Speaker
Okay. And, Gary, if anyone wants to get A hold of you, they can just go to either, like, through your website or actually I'm going to click I'm going to click on your LinkedIn here. And I think I asked you about this before. But folks, if you want to reach out to Gary, he's also here on LinkedIn. And you can always send him a message or connection request if you have any questions.

01;01;57;17 - 01;02;17;18
Speaker
Yeah. Excellent. All right. Well, look, Gary, thank you so much. It's great information. I, I honestly have never, spoken anyone has informed as you on this particular subject, and I'm really glad that I met you. I'm glad that, we were able to connect here and, transmit, your knowledge your across. And I'm hoping that, people have learned something from this one.

01;02;17;21 - 01;02;37;08
Speaker
Well, well, I hope so, too. And, but I have to thank you for the opportunity to come on. And really appreciate it and wish you all the best with all that you, Jordan, because so much of interview you huge because of the amount that you're doing is enormous. congratulations. I don't know how you get through the day.

01;02;37;11 - 01;02;48;03
Speaker
Yeah, well, we try, we push, we push forward. So. Yeah. Hey, look, do me a favor. Hang back, because I want to come back and just chit chat with you. So just stay with me for a bit, okay? Okay. All right. Just. Gary. Thank you.

01;02;48;03 - 01;02;54;08
Speaker
All right, folks, that's it. that's the 100th episode. And, I want to thank everybody, but there are a few comments there.

01;02;54;08 - 01;02;58;24
Speaker
So, thank you for the questions. Thank you for the comments. some good things, happening here.

01;02;58;24 - 01;03;08;13
Speaker
look, folks, have a wonderful Thursday. Thank you so much for the, continued, watching and, support. We'll see you soon and have a happy Thursday. Bye.