EP 101 | Clark Davenport | Necrosearch

Join us for episode 101 of Forensics Talks on May 30, 2024, at 2 PM Eastern, where we'll dive into the fascinating world of forensic geophysics and NecroSearch with Clark Davenport. With a distinguished career spanning over 55 years, Clark has conducted remote-sensing surveys across six continents for criminal, environmental, and archaeological investigations. 
 
As a co-founder and active member of NecroSearch International, Clark has revolutionized the field by assisting law enforcement in locating clandestine graves and hidden evidence. Since 1987, his pioneering work in remote sensing has contributed to more than 100 criminal investigations in 32 states and 7 countries, offering invaluable support to agencies including the FBI, US Secret Service, and international law enforcement bodies. 
 
In this episode Clark will share insights from his extensive experience using remote sensing and geophysical techniques to uncover what lies hidden beneath the surface. His expertise not only helps solve crimes but also brings closure to families affected by unresolved cases. 
 
Tune in and contribute to the discussion as we explore the science behind finding clandestine graves and the profound impact of NecroSearch on forensic investigations. 
 
Originally aired on: May 30, 2024

Transcript

00;00;30;03 - 00;00;47;02
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome. This is forensics talks, and we're at episode 101. And, moving ahead here in the hundreds, which is wonderful. today, my guest is going to be Clark Davenport. And he's a forensic geophysicist. And he's also going to be talking to us about necro search.

00;00;47;02 - 00;00;49;10
Speaker
and we're going to get started right away.

00;00;49;10 - 00;01;09;18
Speaker
Mr. Clark Davenport. he's a forensic geophysicist and, pioneering figure in geo forensics and remote sensing. he's got a career that's spanning over 55 years, and he's, managed and executed remote sensing surveys for criminal, environmental, groundwater, geotechnical, mining, and archeological investigations across six continents.

00;01;09;20 - 00;01;44;22
Speaker
He co-founded Nick Research International, something that is going to be the main, subject for today. And it involves having a multidisciplinary team dedicated to assisting law enforcement in locating clandestine graves and evidence. And since 1987, Clark has led the integration of remote sensing technologies into criminal investigations, contributing to over 100 cases across 32 states and seven countries, and his expertise is sought by many different organizations, including the FBI, the US Secret Service, the DEA, the ATF, and various international police agencies.

00;01;44;25 - 00;02;08;01
Speaker
his instructional roles at institutions like the Colorado Law Enforcement Training Academy and the FBI Academy, highlight his, commitment to education in forensic science. And Clark is also a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. So, he holds a degree in geophysical engineering from the Colorado School of Mines and an associate degree in criminal justice from Red rocks community.

00;02;08;03 - 00;02;16;27
Speaker
he's got an extensive experience, and I've met him only recently, but I've enjoyed his company a lot. And let me bring him in here so we can get going. There he is.

00;02;16;27 - 00;02;18;22
Speaker
Hi, Jane. How are you?

00;02;18;22 - 00;02;25;12
Speaker
I'm good. Thank you so much. And I really appreciate your time and spending. yeah. Get you get you for about an hour.

00;02;25;12 - 00;02;27;25
Speaker
you get through that without saying a.

00;02;27;25 - 00;02;44;25
Speaker
Yeah. The Canadian a I try to avoid that, but I do, I do a lot of, like, hums and ahs and that sort of thing. So hopefully I won't do too many of those, so we'll see. But, hey, I guess we have to thank, t lo t LaVoy tell for, putting us together.

00;02;44;25 - 00;02;50;01
Speaker
Yeah, I guess he's. Yeah, he's a joint, friend. Sotelo, if you're out there watching, thanks very much for connecting us.

00;02;55;03 - 00;03;02;28
Speaker
I'm speaking from, Lakewood, Colorado. It's about 15 miles west of Denver. It's been home. Is that that's where you originally from or.

00;03;03;00 - 00;03;26;05
Speaker
No. No, no, I was raised in, Massachusetts, outside of Boston and very, very western North Carolina. Very western North Carolina. Okay. You came out here in 1959, and other than some years overseas, I pretty much prepare the whole time. Okay. Well, I want to ask you about, you know, your beginnings and,

00;03;26;05 - 00;03;28;26
Speaker
you know, being a geophysicist, but even before that.

00;03;28;26 - 00;03;32;15
Speaker
So, I mean, you know, some of the work that you're doing in forensics,

00;03;32;15 - 00;03;44;20
Speaker
if, if you were to win the clock back to when you were, you know, just a kid or whatever, were you always like a science kid you're into, like, technical stuff or. Like what? What kind of a kid were you?

00;03;45;12 - 00;04;13;10
Speaker
yeah. I was a curious kid. I got very interested in geology. my uncle. I'm sorry. My cousin by marriage was a Canadian geologist, head of the Nova Scotia Geological Survey. And he'd come by the house and, show me his little notebooks with the drawings and, like that, that really intrigued me. So, I, decided in high school we had a choice of taking biology or geology.

00;04;13;10 - 00;04;27;19
Speaker
I took geology, and, that led to, wanting to go to the Colorado School of Mines. kind of a legacy in my, my uncle, my dad's brother graduated there, 1911.

00;04;27;19 - 00;04;39;03
Speaker
So, I was a number of years after that for me. Yeah. I you're old, but you're not that old. That's right. Not, not a senior citizen or a seasoned citizen.

00;04;39;06 - 00;04;50;18
Speaker
Right, exactly. Well, so was it, I mean, the geographically, though, because you were in the Colorado area, was there just a significant amount of work there for a geophysicist?

00;04;50;23 - 00;05;17;27
Speaker
No, I, I travel around the world doing, primarily. I worked in oil and gas for three years, and I did not enjoy that. I enjoyed field work. So, I went to work for a couple of major, consulting firms on large projects siting for nuclear power plants, bridges, roads. And I took me really around the world, which I, you know, short term assignments up to, three or 4 or 5 months.

00;05;17;27 - 00;05;22;23
Speaker
so, there was a few things that came up, like when I was reading your, you know, sort of your CV and your background.

00;05;22;23 - 00;05;39;20
Speaker
There's sort of like remote sensing, there's geophysics, there's this surveying aspect to what you're doing as well. So, maybe I'll start with the, the geo, the physics part. The geophysics part. So, what, just for people who don't know, or maybe you're not familiar with that profession. What can you tell me about that?

00;05;39;20 - 00;06;01;16
Speaker
I like to joke that geophysics was nothing more, than geology with math. that's basically what it is. Is the idea of remote sensing, looking at the earth, trying to determine what's within the earth. for example, you're looking for oil. These types of surveys you do for that, you know, depths of, thousands of feet.

00;06;01;19 - 00;06;19;19
Speaker
If you're looking for contamination in environmental studies, you're probably looking less than 300ft deep. They all have different types of instrumentation that you can run. you get numbers, you plot them, you make maps, and you hope that, you can make decisions on how to clean it up afterwards.

00;06;19;19 - 00;06;25;12
Speaker
And was surveying a big part of the sort of you're learning or you're training

00;06;25;12 - 00;06;49;22
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. yeah. The Colorado School of Mines, you had to take a six-week surveying course, which was during the summer. So, you were eight hours a day, six days a week. And that was nice to have because it was always something you could fall back on if, if you could get a job in oil and gas or something, you could always hold a survey rod.

00;06;49;24 - 00;06;57;07
Speaker
but anything you do in remote sensing; you have to know where you are at any given time. And that involves survey.

00;06;57;07 - 00;07;02;18
Speaker
So, you graduated around what year or when did you start working from, that was around what timeframe?

00;07;03;01 - 00;07;34;20
Speaker
I worked, a couple of years when I was in school, but I graduated in 1964, and that actually crammed, four years into five very conveniently, then went, went to Doyle and Gas for a year. took military leave or was asked to take military leave for, two years, did active duty and then, came back, to the States and, what would go into engineering?

00;07;34;22 - 00;07;59;28
Speaker
Pretty much, I didn't want to go back to oil and gas. They had to give me the job. And I use that platform to find other, other work in the major companies. But one was based here in Denver. worked a couple of years, just doing the, you know, site surveys. And then I had some trouble adjusting, being back from,

00;08;00;03 - 00;08;31;02
Speaker
Well, I was in Vietnam for a year, had trouble adjusting, and took the family, to Spain for three years, worked for Spanish engineering company. And then then we came back here. I was, we lived in Madrid. I worked all over, North Africa, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Korea, South Africa, just, projects all over the place.

00;08;31;05 - 00;08;45;15
Speaker
It was quite a life, but it's been a great life. I still continue to travel. And one of my, one of my investigations now is I've been working summers for eight years in Russia, working, looking for a, a murder victim. Will you talk about that later?

00;08;45;15 - 00;08;50;20
Speaker
Oh, wow. Amazing. Well, let's start. going into the whole natural search thing. So,

00;08;50;20 - 00;08;55;10
Speaker
at some point along your career, you must have. Did you did you already meet some people?

00;08;55;10 - 00;08;59;27
Speaker
Did you have this idea or what? What triggered these whole forensics thing for you?

00;08;59;27 - 00;09;26;04
Speaker
I was working out, on a site looking for, 55-gallon drums that supposedly contained chemicals and they were 6 to 10ft deep. And on the news one evening, I saw police officers doing the same thing with a metal detector, looking for 55-gallon drums, and supposedly had bodies in 6 to 10, 12ft deep. I told my, son, who at that point, I think was a senior in high school, you know, those guys, you're crazy.

00;09;26;06 - 00;09;55;16
Speaker
You can't detect anything that deep with a standard metal detector. And his threat to me, he's now a lawyer. Was, Oh. Dad, why don't you do something about that? So, I the next morning, I made a career ending decision. I called the police station and said, hey, I didn't want to join remote sensing. I just said, I have some information on those bodies that has led to, something like 37 years of, fascinating work.

00;09;55;20 - 00;09;57;07
Speaker
Absolutely fascinating.

00;09;57;07 - 00;10;01;04
Speaker
Amazing. So, you got involved. They called you back.

00;10;01;04 - 00;10;24;06
Speaker
Yes, they called, I got involved in the investigation. We did, in fact, find some barrels that deep. And that led to being asked by the coroner, Bureau of Investigation to give, it would talk to some of the agents about. Hey, what are these things you're doing? And then that led to, being asked by the FBI to come to New York and do the same sort of thing.

00;10;24;06 - 00;10;48;20
Speaker
What are you doing? And, yeah, this is kind of new to us. And that led to a, basically meeting some individuals that were struggling. There's three, three policemen. Three investigators are detectives struggling with the idea. There's got to be a better way to find the remains of murder victims, clandestine graves. And, we had a breakfast.

00;10;48;20 - 00;11;20;06
Speaker
The Denny's I, a colleague who's a geologist and, three police officers and, came up with an idea. Well, why don't we bury something in, you know, see what the changes are in Colorado, even though now we have legalized marijuana. At the time, we didn't, didn't. And using human remains is a different issue. And we just decided we had been given, I guess about ten acres by a couple of the sheriff's office, and we buried three pigs.

00;11;20;08 - 00;11;39;24
Speaker
Pigs are somewhere in week, organs and so forth, and we buried them at different depths. And, you know, figure two weeks later, we'll come back and, see what the changes are. And off we go. people here in Colorado thought that that was, when they found out, they thought it was a cult activity. It wasn't hard to convince them not to dump the.

00;11;39;24 - 00;12;15;02
Speaker
Pardon this. The pigs were victims of AMA sites. Yes. we went back a couple weeks later, and there were some pretty major changes. Like one of the pigs was totally missing. we found all kinds of animal tracks around the grave that is led to forming an organization we originally called Project Pig. including, every time we would do something, we would come up with questions, and then one of us would say, well, I know somebody can help us.

00;12;15;04 - 00;13;00;11
Speaker
That, morphed into in 1987 or 1988 into NEC Research International, just went through the IRS at 500 1C3. And currently we have, about 50 members scattered throughout the U.S., although a majority of them are here. We have very close ties with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. We have 17 or 18 different disciplines, you know, to the dog handlers, geophysics, soils people, chemists, drone operators, and the interesting thing about natural research, I find, and I'm very pleased at it this way, is we don't charge for what we do.

00;13;00;14 - 00;13;35;25
Speaker
We've done close to 400 investigations. again, seven foreign countries. We only charge expenses. our goal. What I say is that there's no statute of limitations on murder, at least in the U.S., nor other statute of limitations on grief. If we can help people come to closure. it's a huge reward. I think that my feeling from that comes from my time in overseas, in, Vietnam, seeing what would people are capable of doing to people?

00;13;35;27 - 00;14;04;14
Speaker
it's an eclectic group. We have young people. We have older senior citizens, seasoned citizens, we have people that have, everybody is a volunteer. We meet once a week, a correction once a month. our meetings talk about cases and what we can do to help. We have a protocol. We only respond to requests from law enforcement agencies.

00;14;04;17 - 00;14;30;19
Speaker
And there's a there's a reason for that. If you call your brother's missing and, you want help, we can't help you unless you go through an a law enforcement agency or if there's an individual in research that thinks they can help you, they can ask permission to do, from the board of directors. And, as long as the, there's no association with natural search.

00;14;30;19 - 00;14;52;24
Speaker
Yes. You can go ahead and help. We've done some of those as training. for example, sometimes a world and there'll be a community that wants to know they have a cemetery. Can you find out in this area of the cemetery, are there perhaps any graves? So, we want to expand the cemetery, and we'll do that as a training program, not charging anything.

00;14;52;24 - 00;14;59;06
Speaker
you. Okay. Let me let me back up a bit because you mentioned something that I just have a couple of questions, for what you just said. So, the first one is

00;14;59;06 - 00;15;04;02
Speaker
you got ten acres of land. So how did how did they decide to just give you, like, ten acres?

00;15;04;02 - 00;15;08;18
Speaker
Like, who's going to give you ten acres of land these days? Like to do work? That's amazing. So, what happened there?

00;15;08;18 - 00;15;34;15
Speaker
it's a joint operation between two sheriffs’, districts, the Arapahoe County Sheriff's Office and the Douglas County Sheriff's Office. they have a law enforcement training facility in, southern, well, south of Denver. It has, firing ranges. It has, a kill house. And we're just part of it. we use our section for research.

00;15;34;15 - 00;15;59;28
Speaker
We bury pigs and other things. one of the things that you can, you know, there are body farms now that have been a body farm in Tennessee for a long time. There are a couple others. One in Colorado. We don't deal with human remains. that specifically, if you're dealing with human remains, people donate their bodies. It has to be in a secure environment.

00;16;00;02 - 00;16;30;23
Speaker
You want to look at decomposition, how clothing changes and so forth. And that's great. We're more interested in scavenging. And if you're looking for animals to scavenge, you don't want to be in a secure, fenced in environment. Just leave it open. we've gone through attaching small, transmitters to different parts of pigs. let coyotes, bobcats, raccoons, other, predators carry these things off.

00;16;30;23 - 00;17;03;20
Speaker
And it's been it's been fascinating. one of the things we've learned is, well, what role do birds play in finding clandestine graves? And if, you know, scavenging patterns of birds in an area, Birdsville nests out of hairs and fibers here on human remains. Last, the long time. So, we're learning as we go. We've published, a number of things and it's and we share we share what we do with others, even law enforcement agencies and others that are doing research.

00;17;03;20 - 00;17;07;23
Speaker
And it's just it's, I'm passionate about it.

00;17;08;04 - 00;17;10;13
Speaker
Well, you're, So you're a co-founder, but,

00;17;10;13 - 00;17;12;25
Speaker
there were other founders that, you know.

00;17;12;26 - 00;17;25;27
Speaker
Absolutely. Co-Founder. So, were these, how what was what was the first meeting about? Who came up with the you know, where you guys, I don't know, having a coffee. And somebody said, you know, we should, you know, start neck research or something. How did that happen?

00;17;25;27 - 00;17;52;26
Speaker
Well, not research now. It's, we started we started with the three detectives, me and a geologist of that. Now, let's see, two of the detectives, passed away. Griff and the geologist. Griff is with Knuckle Surf now. He's a founder myself. And the geologist is still alive, but not part of my research. And that's his choice.

00;17;52;29 - 00;17;54;11
Speaker
The idea that,

00;17;54;11 - 00;17;56;27
Speaker
I didn't like the name,

00;17;56;27 - 00;18;15;22
Speaker
the professional presentation of the name Project Pig. And at the time, I was working in Italy, and I came home. I'd been working on a necropolis. Necropolis was, you know, necro death. Acropolis city. A necropolis is a cemetery. That's where I'd been working.

00;18;15;24 - 00;18;32;08
Speaker
And with my son, we came up with the name Necro Search. And that's what we just had a good sound to it. that's what we went ahead and, got our 501 C3 using that name. Equusearch international.

00;18;32;08 - 00;18;34;06
Speaker
Yeah. When you said Griff, that's,

00;18;34;06 - 00;18;40;12
Speaker
Tom Griffin. Yeah, he's, he's I know I've seen him at conferences, actually, I saw a presentation that he did on neck research.

00;18;40;12 - 00;18;46;19
Speaker
I think it was boy, back in 20. I'm going to say it was like 2017 or something like that,

00;18;46;19 - 00;19;04;26
Speaker
you know, he's very, very well known. He's a blood spatter expert. He works for a private consulting firm, but still is a member. Very active member of that research. The former deputy director of Cora River investigation is a member of Necro Search.

00;19;06;04 - 00;19;07;25
Speaker
Got some interesting people.

00;19;07;25 - 00;19;09;01
Speaker
So, you have,

00;19;09;01 - 00;19;24;15
Speaker
like you said, you have all these different disciplines. And if you go on the website, you know, you list all kinds of different things that you do, things like hydrology and, you know, the clandestine grave excavation and just a whole bunch of different things. So,

00;19;24;15 - 00;19;29;02
Speaker
what kinds of technologies do you have access to?

00;19;29;02 - 00;19;33;21
Speaker
Like not only the people, but what kinds of technology are typically used when you're doing a search

00;19;33;21 - 00;20;02;14
Speaker
We have, as far as instrumentation goes, we have our own site scan sonar, ground penetrating radar systems, electromagnetics systems, metal detectors. Anything that you would typically use on a, let's say, a treasure hunt that can be modified to look for disturbances that might contain human remains. our, the way we approach sites is, non-invasive to invasive.

00;20;02;14 - 00;20;34;25
Speaker
In other words, first thing we try to do is build a search footprint. And that might involve using aerial photographs. We can find aerial, existing aerial photographs that were taken before a suspected disposal and after, one of our people is a very, very skilled computer person. And he's developed the technique of, taking different photos, doing all kinds of processing and subtracting them so that the difference is what has changed in the interval between the photos.

00;20;34;27 - 00;21;09;09
Speaker
And that's been a tremendous help. That's non-invasive. Once that technique is used to develop an area, then we can use to have our dogs. We can send in botanists that look at, all kinds of vegetation, soils, people, hydrologists that were involved with water, creeks and so forth, said flows and ground water, and then you get all the way up to the technology such as, lidar or ground penetrating radar.

00;21;09;09 - 00;21;26;05
Speaker
are drones something that you're using? Like, I know a lot of these drones have thermal, they got multi-spectral, they got all this sort of thing. And there's actually a question from somebody here asking about, you know, whether or not the decomposition of the organic matter in a grave, let's say, or something like that.

00;21;26;05 - 00;21;32;00
Speaker
if it creates some kind of depression or disturbance that can be detected easily,

00;21;32;08 - 00;21;44;29
Speaker
Right. Usually by the time we get to a case, any decomposition is. Well past. Our cases are typically anywhere from three to, I don't know, 100 years old.

00;21;44;29 - 00;22;02;09
Speaker
yes. The drone with infrared. You know, law enforcement uses flair. Forward looking infrared, to develop heat signatures, to look at, different things. We use the same technology to look at the ground, because if you if you disturb the ground,

00;22;02;09 - 00;22;08;11
Speaker
that heat signature eventually will be different than the surrounding undisturbed ground.

00;22;08;14 - 00;22;33;13
Speaker
Now, what does that mean? It could be that a tree was uprooted, and you've got, the, the cast of the, the root and everything that are there. But it could also be that somebody was, buried or disposed of in an area. And just by the fact that that ground is typically looser than, other areas that heat signature given off may be the technique may be detectable.

00;22;33;20 - 00;22;41;18
Speaker
Just the heat. Once the sun goes down, that area is heated up, releases heat. we can map things like that.

00;22;41;18 - 00;22;42;19
Speaker
And then using,

00;22;42;19 - 00;23;00;17
Speaker
I want to ask you about the process of, you know, when you're first contacted, maybe by a law enforcement agency, and then, you know, how that leads all the way up to, you know, you guys bringing a team of people together and then getting out on a site or like doing searches and stuff like that.

00;23;00;17 - 00;23;02;04
Speaker
What's that process like?

00;23;02;04 - 00;23;26;11
Speaker
The process and the protocol we use is that if we're contacted by law enforcement agency, we will talk to them about what they have, and we will provide them with a questionnaire. It's usually a two, two-and-a-half-page questionnaire. The questions are asked to do two things to make sure that they've done everything they can before they start to rely on us.

00;23;26;12 - 00;23;53;14
Speaker
In other words, have they done their homework because, you know, we don't want to do their work for them, but we're happy to extend what they don't have in the way of techniques. Questionnaires presented to the membership, the requesting, what the answers are. The requesting a law enforcement agency is invited to give a presentation to us. We've had presentations from people, which have come to our meetings again once a month.

00;23;53;16 - 00;24;18;11
Speaker
We've had people from Australia come in, and, give presentations, but now we're, you know, we're doing it, virtually, give a presentation to the, to our members that are there and online and that just like this will develop questions and then we determine, can we help them and how can we help them? We will come up with a budget.

00;24;18;14 - 00;24;43;25
Speaker
And budget would just include things like, you know, you've got to get us there. 2 or 3 of us may be more, and if we're going to be there for 3 or 4 days, we need to be fed and housed. That's basically the only in travel expenses that that's the only, expenses that typically are incurred. Anything above and beyond that, we don't do anything until your agency gives an approval.

00;24;43;27 - 00;25;03;05
Speaker
sometimes neck and back will help with the expenses. If we're looking for a child under the under the age of 18, and they have they have a file or they have asked us, but it's a fairly rigid thing. I mean, we we're glad to help. We just want to make sure that we're not wasting the agency's time nor our time.

00;25;03;05 - 00;25;13;17
Speaker
Okay. What is the scale of some of these, search areas, that you have to deal with? I mean, are we talking about.

00;25;13;17 - 00;25;20;19
Speaker
It's going to be, you know, I don't know, 20mi². Are we talking, like, how big of an area are you given to? Like, hey, go out and look for stuff.

00;25;20;19 - 00;25;21;18
Speaker
Is it very specific? That's

00;25;21;18 - 00;25;45;18
Speaker
we get into the, ER, photos. And, working with the law enforcement agency, they can share things with us, timelines and maybe confessions. We. In fact, I've just worked on some confessions now with a for one of our members is a forensic, psychologist. they can look at confessions and determine quite a bit from that, or actually interview the person.

00;25;45;20 - 00;26;10;15
Speaker
no. You're getting into areas that large that has to be narrowed down. you know, you don't want to spend a lot of time, and we're. I think we're very good at narrowing areas down. We look at things like, you know, how did they get in there? If there's an area of suspected disposal? how did, they did they carry the body into the user vehicle?

00;26;10;18 - 00;26;22;19
Speaker
and if they use the vehicle, what do they access? What is the egress that all that type of stuff? We do a lot of work before we go to the field. We don't just show up with magic wand, you know?

00;26;22;19 - 00;26;29;27
Speaker
I'm thinking in my head about land, like you're, you know, excavating on land. But have you done work with water?

00;26;29;27 - 00;26;31;21
Speaker
I mean, bodies,

00;26;31;21 - 00;26;56;13
Speaker
absolutely. found a car in the Missouri River. This is for the DEA. no. Was for the ATF. It had been there seven years. but had a general or they thought the car might be. And we spent, two days on the river surveying, but prior to that, we worked with the manufacturer of the vehicle.

00;26;56;13 - 00;27;19;02
Speaker
We knew what year it was, didn't have air conditioning when it came out. Or the reason we ask questions like that was it was done. The disappearance was on an August evening in Missouri. It's probably pretty hot. Okay. did the car have air conditioning or maybe the windows were up or the windows down? If the windows were down, how long would the car float?

00;27;19;04 - 00;27;44;19
Speaker
a lot of questions like this. How deep is the channel? Was it a self scouring channel or not working with the Corps of Engineers? We put all this information together when I spent two days on the road with a magnetometer, because we knew the mass of metal in the motor and, came up with three anomalous areas that we modeled on a response.

00;27;44;22 - 00;28;06;10
Speaker
And, the dive team, we briefed the dive team and, the first anomaly, they, they doggone, they pulled up the license plate. That was the one they were looking for. The we eventually got the vehicle out and there was a body in the trunk of the vehicle. So, yeah, we work in water. we work on one, we work in swamps.

00;28;06;12 - 00;28;30;21
Speaker
We even worked in new Jersey in a in a, you know, in the chemical lagoon. I mean, that, question was and the question you get in there, what are the chemicals in that lagoon and what effect would they have on a by we, worked on another section of the Missouri River where, bodies were dismembered, the two bodies in particular, and put in the river.

00;28;30;23 - 00;28;50;26
Speaker
we knew about where they went in the river. We had the requesting agency dismember some pigs and put some transmitters on them. And over a period of time, they went out and looked at where the, where those body parts went. And that help on a search footprint. So, we, we tried different things.

00;28;50;26 - 00;28;55;21
Speaker
a lot of people that know me know that I do a lot of work with, like, 3D scanning and photogrammetry.

00;28;55;21 - 00;29;17;05
Speaker
And I got this recon 3D app and stuff like that. But I'm curious about your take on ground penetrating radar. And the reason is I've seen, over the years, I've seen presentations on this at, at conferences and things like that. And it's been hit and miss. So, people have, you know, shown where they've buried pigs and things like that.

00;29;17;05 - 00;29;28;08
Speaker
And then you got to go find it a year later or something like that, and you know that they're digging up tree roots or whatever, or they miss it. Sometimes they get it. So, well, what's your experience with, with GPS?

00;29;28;28 - 00;29;48;24
Speaker
Well, I've been working with GPS since the early 1980s. and I don't pretend to be an expert, but when people call and say we want you PR first, I want to know why. And I want to know what we're looking for. And there's a lot of questions, but I'll told them there's good news and bad news initially.

00;29;48;24 - 00;30;08;09
Speaker
Will. Okay. What's the bad news? The bad news is you're going to find anomalies. Well then what's the good news? You're going to find anomalies. We don't know what those are. It's just a disturbance in the ground. Then we have to get into looking at the shape of the disturbance, the depth of the disturbance. If you're looking for.

00;30;08;11 - 00;30;34;16
Speaker
If you're looking for a child, when your disturbance is 18ft long. that's not going to be a high priority if you're looking in the adult for an adult remains in the, in your disturbance is three feet long at probably a low priority. I will state again, again and again. Ground penetrating radar will not find but will not find bodies.

00;30;34;18 - 00;31;00;22
Speaker
We can't tell you that. You can find them in a laboratory in a, in a controlled setting, but not in the field. What you will find are disturbances. And then you have to get into looking at the characteristics of the disturbances. What you can see and prioritize those. For example, we had a case in, in, well, in Florida in 1994.

00;31;00;25 - 00;31;20;07
Speaker
as far as I know, it's the first, maybe the second case of ground penetrating radar being used in port, the result of the ground penetrating radar. All I knew from the radar; we had three anomalies in this back yard. I prioritized them, but we also knew that one of those, anomalies we had. There was a reason why.

00;31;20;08 - 00;31;42;14
Speaker
In fact, there's a reason for two of them. construction reason. So, the one, that didn't have any reason to exist. The anomaly turned out to be the remains of a woman. And. And this are all concrete. She'd been under that concrete for 28 years now. I didn't know she was there. All I could say was there's an anomaly.

00;31;42;17 - 00;32;07;08
Speaker
And that's what happens when you go to court. The, there is a, the people ask what words to use in a warrant all the time. Law enforcement. And I use that case because it did the conversion did stand up with the, Arizona, 12 Circuit Superior Court, Supreme Court. the husband was still alive but remarried.

00;32;07;10 - 00;32;10;18
Speaker
Anyways, that was, that was a very interesting case.

00;32;10;18 - 00;32;16;13
Speaker
Interesting. So, what kind of, I mean, is it just because the GPS is very sensitive to,

00;32;16;13 - 00;32;21;24
Speaker
soil content and, natural moisture, moisture, things like

00;32;21;24 - 00;32;46;23
Speaker
But moisture. Clay, you know, I've run the ground penetrating radar in Mexico City looking for archeological stuff, and I got a penetration of less than a meter because Mexico City's in a giant clay basin. the other thing is running it, being asked to run it in in a canal, a clay line canal. Looking for, leaks in the canal.

00;32;46;25 - 00;33;18;18
Speaker
And I said, sure, we can do that and all. Somebody said, wait a minute, you can't use radar in a clay environment? I said, absolutely, but if there's a leak, the clay's don. So, you know, it's negative information. Put the client they want. it's a dangerous tool. It really is. And then you get to the, we're seeing that the instrumentation has become so easy to use that we can send out technicians that don't understand what they're looking at on the results.

00;33;18;20 - 00;33;45;13
Speaker
They don't understand that they're probably going to end up testifying in court one way or the other was, you know, if you didn't find anything, why? is it the only the only time I really like to see radar used is when it's on a surface that you can't penetrate, such as asphalt, concrete. and there are some other things, but I'm very, shy about using radar.

00;33;45;13 - 00;33;57;20
Speaker
I was going to ask you about that, when you're approached, and again, I think you had I think I read somewhere that, you know, over the years you've had, you know, hundreds of cases as a group as Nick research has been working on.

00;33;57;22 - 00;34;12;15
Speaker
what kind of ratio do you have? Because I imagine some of these have got to be really difficult or, you know, it's based on a hunch or. Right. So yeah. So, there's probably a lot of, suppose that you do that. They. Yeah. They're cold. They don't they don't turn up anything. Right.

00;34;12;15 - 00;34;36;18
Speaker
Rock. And, being asked on the stand. Well, you know how many investigations and research done. 400 and something. well, how many have been successful? well, let's define success. We're looking for human remains. If we bring ten disciplines dogs, botanists, or geophysics, geology, soils

00;34;36;18 - 00;34;43;20
Speaker
into an area that we've determined is it within the search footprint and we don't find anything.

00;34;43;22 - 00;35;09;05
Speaker
going to say we're about 80% certain that we've been successful in that. There's nothing there that at least what they're looking for. have we found human remains? Absolutely. difficult cases, just like the one I told, the one in the in the Missouri River lawn under the concrete. some very tricky cases. but I've also changed a, a grave.

00;35;09;07 - 00;35;38;18
Speaker
I think it's he's moved it three times. Yeah, that should be illegal right there. You just don't go and dig up something because, you know, these people would come look for. So, it's, again, what we find the disturbances and, you know, try to prioritize. And a lot of people get into, you know, a disturbance and then really trying to read, well, their bones and I can't do that.

00;35;38;20 - 00;35;54;19
Speaker
But yeah, we have, I would say out of, 400 searches were probably in the range of 15% of actually finding human remains. But I can also say that the other 85% pretty sure has been cleared.

00;35;54;19 - 00;36;02;22
Speaker
which is helpful in itself, because if you if you know that there's likely nothing there, you can focus your attention on something else.

00;36;02;22 - 00;36;09;07
Speaker
You can exclude that area from being important, and you go and move on to the next location. Right? So yeah, it's still helpful.

00;36;09;07 - 00;36;16;00
Speaker
So, it's not that, you know, it didn't find anything. It could be that there's nothing there. So. Yeah, that's a really good point.

00;36;16;00 - 00;36;17;05
Speaker
you talked about

00;36;17;05 - 00;36;19;03
Speaker
testifying at trial in court.

00;36;19;03 - 00;36;34;27
Speaker
So, I'm curious about, you know, what kinds of things you're being asked by. I mean, if you're working for law enforcement, that means you're going to be cross-examined by the defense. And so, what kinds of things do they do? They tend to ask you, like, what are they curious about? Or.

00;36;35;03 - 00;37;08;23
Speaker
Look, you know, I'm very, Of course, the first thing is credibility. You know, you get you get questions like. Now, Doctor Davenport, could you. Oh, excuse me, I sure you're not a doctor, Mr. Davenport, of course. That goes on every fifth question now, doctor. Oh. I'm sorry, it's Mr.. You know, that's the credibility issue, but what I've testified, I've had defense attorneys that have been asked anything that's happened once, but I've also had defense attorneys that are, have they've done a bit of research and I some pretty good questions.

00;37;08;26 - 00;37;37;27
Speaker
And scientists and engineers are not good people trying to explain something to a layman. they're very condescending. And I, I take great pride in being able to explain to, judges. In fact, on that ground penetrating radar case, we, what was the Daubert decision? And I had to educate the judge, as to whether radar could be entered as a result of the radar could be used in court as evidence.

00;37;38;00 - 00;38;00;24
Speaker
And It's, you deal with juries, but defense can ask some very good questions, which, you take a I was called to. I always count to 3 or 4 before I answer a question, because it's just if you do that enough, it looks normal. And it gives me time to think about how, okay, how am I going to explain this?

00;38;00;27 - 00;38;21;24
Speaker
but I, I enjoy courthouse, courthouse, theater, and, I've had, I've had, dinner with a defense attorney, fairly well known, one of the Mideast, in the Middle East to the United States. And I asked me if you ever defended somebody that you know is guilty, so. Absolutely. I said, how can you do that?

00;38;21;24 - 00;38;53;27
Speaker
He said, my job is to protect their rights. And once I understood that that which made such, it was also one of our investigations and was probably the most important one I ever did was finding a car. I'm sorry, a truck in the in the Columbia River. And because of the timeline and the victim, the, the driver of the vehicle who was out on parole, there was a crime committed very close to where he was living at the time.

00;38;53;27 - 00;39;18;19
Speaker
That was at the same, m.o was when he was in prison for. But because of the timeline and other information, he could not have committed the crime that they were thinking that he did. He was innocent. And at that point, you know, you realize this is science. You have to these are facts. You can't change the facts.

00;39;18;19 - 00;39;23;09
Speaker
yeah, there's somebody I know. He says, never argue with never argue with the facts, that's for sure.

00;39;23;09 - 00;39;30;16
Speaker
so are you typically sending one person from Equusearch to testify, or do you have to get multiple people sometimes on the stand

00;39;30;29 - 00;39;47;26
Speaker
It depends. We had; I would say usually it's two people that would end up testifying on the same crime. But it depends on, you know, what was done and what the what the agency you or at that point, the district attorney feels are necessary.

00;39;47;26 - 00;39;53;22
Speaker
I noticed that there was a book that was written a long time, and I believe it was Steve Jackson, some time ago.

00;39;53;22 - 00;39;58;14
Speaker
And I think it's a little dated. Right now, but I don't know. Okay. Is he still around? Is Steve

00;39;58;14 - 00;40;23;15
Speaker
Stevens live at is undergoing cancer treatment. he's thinking of actually, he's actively working on a, another book about necrosis or with more and more modern cases. His first book was called no Stone unturned, and I think it's available in paperback on eBay. It was a fun read. number of the cases we worked on a bit about forensic science.

00;40;23;17 - 00;40;37;09
Speaker
Steve's a character he, been with him. I'm on vacation in, Russia. We've had, 3 or 4 different, non-kosher people on that one. and Steve's been there a couple of times.

00;40;37;09 - 00;40;40;06
Speaker
What's his background or what's his specialty

00;40;40;21 - 00;41;03;26
Speaker
History. He's working on the history. He's a writer and author. he's, written a number of books and mostly true crime. so, he's our he’s, our historian. but he also, you know, when we when we need groundwork in Russia, we're in some pretty tough terrain. And he's in there with another set of eyes.

00;41;03;26 - 00;41;05;19
Speaker
I want to ask you about some of the cases.

00;41;05;19 - 00;41;21;23
Speaker
I mean, you've sort of, you know, led into a few of them. but were there any in particular or even if it was one you mentioned already that was really memorable or something that really stood out in your mind? it had some it was either because it was a good learning experience for you or just had a big impact.

00;41;22;15 - 00;41;46;12
Speaker
the main one was the one I just explained about the, the vehicle in the Columbia River and the driver, that had a big impact on me. And I realized that, you know, there are two sides to every story. And, I do have a degree in criminal justice, but I also have four years, let's say, degree, a certificate.

00;41;46;14 - 00;42;08;15
Speaker
preparing to be a deacon in the Episcopal Church. four years of seminary. So, I get to see the, a number of different things, and, but sometimes online just it's really lovely, like shaking a tree for who I was. But, but the, the other case, I love history. I'm just a real history buff.

00;42;08;15 - 00;42;35;21
Speaker
And being invited to work on the looking for the remains of, Michael Romanoff, who may have been the last czar of Russia doing this with a friend who runs a, another nonprofit called Research Foundation. And we've been working, summers for 2 to 3 weeks for, oh, at eight years of war. Didn't go this year.

00;42;35;23 - 00;43;02;23
Speaker
No one. And up in, And. Well, anyway, it's been quite an experience. I enjoy the area we're working in, in Russia, almost in Siberia to the foot of the Urals. I enjoy the people we're working with. we're working with the Russian police. We're working with historians and archeologists. people who work with their hands.

00;43;02;26 - 00;43;07;12
Speaker
Real people, not politicians who stay away from.

00;43;07;12 - 00;43;21;27
Speaker
if you might, I'm not going to take a question here. Somebody just asked, in the comments here. And this is from it says Polaris. 30,000 was actually, I believe it's Connor from Calgary, but he's watching from Texas, so, yeah.

00;43;21;29 - 00;43;24;19
Speaker
Yeah. So, he says, I know

00;43;24;19 - 00;43;29;11
Speaker
tell people lived in Texas for a year, and then I went to Vietnam. I was a step up and living,

00;43;29;11 - 00;43;49;15
Speaker
boy, people from Texas are going to go nuts now. So, so, he says here anyway for personal interest, it's also possible to identify potential grave sites scattered remains and possible further sites using models developed from historical geological data.

00;43;49;15 - 00;44;02;03
Speaker
So basically, is it possible to identify these, sites and scattered remains using some kind of, historical data? I mean, do you, well, you mentioned something about the images and subtracting images. you know,

00;44;02;03 - 00;44;30;09
Speaker
We do that. We also look at lidar, for elevation changes and rotating. a three-dimensional model. It's called geomorphology. Looking at the surface of the Earth, and you can rotate it and look at shadows to me. Shadows? one of the things I use are polarized shooting glasses. And you can get their polarized sunglasses if you wish.

00;44;30;15 - 00;44;54;07
Speaker
You can get them for $15. I use purple ones if it's cloudy and I use amber ones. Amber lenses. It's not in the differences. You can see with those things. Looking at a sight, you can see where people have walked, where vehicles have been that you probably can't see if you don't have them on. polarized lens glasses are incredible.

00;44;54;10 - 00;45;13;05
Speaker
So that gets into the surface of the ground. modeling geology, not so much. We're not really into the geology. What we use a geologist for is looking at the ground and saying, hey, wait a minute. This over here is this type of soil, but right here, I've got a pile of this type of soil. You're more soils.

00;45;13;05 - 00;45;27;03
Speaker
People. Geology can play a role. we've done a number of things with my shafts. Colorado is a great place to dump a body in the mine shaft. And that gets into some geology gear.

00;45;27;03 - 00;45;42;29
Speaker
Okay. How do you keep your own? You have a lot of players that are on your team or people that have signed up because you got like 50 people or something like that. So how do you keep everybody on the same page? How do you keep training and like people updated on each other's level of expertise or new things like that?

00;45;42;29 - 00;45;46;19
Speaker
What kinds of things do you do just to keep everybody updated?

00;45;47;05 - 00;46;17;02
Speaker
Right. We have our monthly meeting, and we talk not only about cases, but we have what we call the neck research. When we discussions of who's maybe giving a paper, giving a talk, taking training. we just last, last, meeting was a training with Aids. We bought a couple of aids to take out the one of them take out when we go to the field with two of them, we, you know, two different investigations.

00;46;17;04 - 00;46;34;01
Speaker
somebody made. Oh. I'm sorry. It's, automatic. it's a defibrillator. A defibrillator. You know, you put two pads on and shock somebody. You know, these are all what I call, tla's. Three letter acronyms. I hate them.

00;46;34;01 - 00;46;34;24
Speaker
Too many.

00;46;34;24 - 00;46;46;23
Speaker
yeah. Right. Exactly. and we share. We share with each other. You know what's going on not only in our lives, but professional life and family life.

00;46;46;25 - 00;47;12;01
Speaker
we just had a, one of our incredible members who specialized in landfills looking for bodies in landfills, just passed away three weeks ago on that. That has been a huge, huge loss. oh. We have another person that he has trained, but, you know, we train each other, we cross train and say we go out and do work, maybe on a cemetery.

00;47;12;01 - 00;47;24;29
Speaker
Browning radar. We make sure everybody gets a chance to on the radar. You're not going to be an expert in it, but you will know, how to organize it and what needs to be done prior to running it.

00;47;25;20 - 00;47;33;28
Speaker
I I've noticed here on the website you've got, this is part of the area, the same area where you do the training initiative. Hands on. Okay. Like we

00;47;33;28 - 00;47;58;03
Speaker
we're self-funded. And right now, starting Friday every year, we give a course the hands-on course for law enforcement and only law enforcement. or, you know, certified forensic scientists. We talk about each of the methods we use, and then we go out and apply them looking for our pigs that have been buried and we excavated.

00;47;58;05 - 00;48;26;00
Speaker
It's, a hands-on course. We try to keep the cost, reasonable. and there I think last year we had a couple of scholarships. we've had people from, God move all over, even I think we had someone from Africa came over. it's. And that's how we, you know, we don't spend a lot of money, unless we're buying equipment.

00;48;26;00 - 00;48;31;19
Speaker
We do get obviously, donations, but this is a prime method of raising funds.

00;48;31;19 - 00;48;41;07
Speaker
But this is primarily, and this is also like the training is primarily for the research people. But can you like if somebody wanted to attend for the other people can attend.

00;48;41;20 - 00;49;11;15
Speaker
No, it's basically, you know, for, well, our own people, you, we get students and staff that are going to join or have joined Equusearch to join. Equusearch is a year long process. but the training class is specifically for law enforcement individuals. We have people coming in from the, Libya on in fact, starting, starting Friday, I'll be giving a couple of talks.

00;49;11;15 - 00;49;36;01
Speaker
But we all are different people, not all of them, but give talks on different disciplines. And then you go out and you look at the vegetation. You talk about the geology of the soils up there. You look for the animal tracks that scavenge. So, it's a hands-on thing. You're not going to be an expert. You won't be a member of necro search, but at least you'll understand some things that you can do on your own to help yourself on an investigation.

00;49;36;01 - 00;49;50;03
Speaker
Okay, so tell me about what you're working on. Is there something that you have plans for looking forward that you'd like to do with neck research, or even personally for that matter? with some of that, with some of the jobs and some of the cases you've been working on?

00;49;50;13 - 00;50;16;11
Speaker
Yeah, I'm. I am particularly well. I have one of my dreams is to look for the remains of some of, Hannibal. Hannibal's not Hannibal Lecter. Hannibal, the 27-year-old general across the Alps. Well, God knows how many people and 7 or 8 elephants. And everybody says there's no there's no archeological record. There is.

00;50;16;13 - 00;50;40;04
Speaker
But I follow the Alps a couple times. That dream has been shattered. I just I know there's some French people working on it, and then they're doing a good job. Now, I love history, I'm very interested in, also in, mass graves, trying to help people find those. there are some different techniques that can be used.

00;50;40;06 - 00;51;02;18
Speaker
I, I was, approached the number of years ago by someone from the UN. They said, oh, yeah, we have a grave where, mass grave people were buried in you. 55 gallon or metal drums. But we didn't have a magnetometer. And so, what? Did you have accomplished? This? Oh, yeah, we had accomplished that. You have what you need to find those things.

00;51;02;21 - 00;51;16;15
Speaker
And it's just sharing. That is my passion now. I mean, I have new knees that help in the field, but I'm not young. as a, I'm not as young as I used to be. Passion still.

00;51;17;03 - 00;51;26;22
Speaker
I mean, you like history, so. I mean, have you ever been involved in anything regarding, you know, World War Two and, like, recovering some of the bodies or people, you know, overseas or anything like that?

00;51;26;22 - 00;51;52;29
Speaker
No, I, we have two members in Equusearch that are actively involved in overseas looking for, missing the MIAs from World War two. I don't know if they know. They don't get into, Vietnam. and I found, I worked on a, B 24 crash that happened during the Second World War but happened here in Colorado.

00;51;53;01 - 00;52;31;11
Speaker
we found the, the, the remains in the Air Force put up a, a plaque. Actually, it's interesting. We lost more, people, more pilots in training in the U.S. than we did in the war itself. Overseas in combat. I've also, volunteered, finding, mass graves from the, Fanshawe expedition, which was, it's called, I can't remember the name of that, but it was, the, a massacre that took place in Utah involving Indians, the Mormons and the wagon train.

00;52;31;13 - 00;52;50;11
Speaker
Multimodal massacre. That was a naval, I've worked up at Fort Laramie as a volunteer doing radar, and. Yeah, just this history stuff. I just love it. And if I have the time and, the, But I don't do that through necrophiliac. I do it again just as myself. But it's good training.

00;52;50;11 - 00;52;57;13
Speaker
Yeah. Excellent. do you mind if I put your, your LinkedIn profile up here? Because I just. In case somebody wants to get a hold of you.

00;52;57;13 - 00;53;08;05
Speaker
I know that, sometimes it comes up and, I am going to show this here. you are. And we're connected here on LinkedIn. But if anyone is interested in reaching out, if you want to find out more about,

00;53;08;05 - 00;53;20;29
Speaker
forensic geophysics, if you want to find out about history or if you want to find out about Nick research, Clark is, I guess you could reach out to him on the LinkedIn platform, but I don't know if, and also, Nick research.

00;53;20;29 - 00;53;39;28
Speaker
I want to bring that up in case people if there's any people from law enforcement that have a, an interest in reaching out to you guys for Hope, right? there's a, like there's a contact form. So let me bring up the banner as well, because that might be interesting. So just, Nick, research talk. Okay. And, the contact form, does that come to you or does that come to some other

00;53;39;28 - 00;54;02;28
Speaker
No, it doesn't come to me. Comes to the president. My personal email is one word. Geo forensics. Plural. Geo forensics. Comcast dot net. And if people want to contact me, that's fine. Just in the subject, just put macro search or something along those lines. Forensic or question on forensics.

00;54;02;28 - 00;54;05;07
Speaker
I do a lot of,

00;54;05;07 - 00;54;19;29
Speaker
you know, people, people ask if, necro search uses psychics, and I say no, because I don't understand law enforcement does. But when we call them, they want us. They say, who's calling? And, you know, that's a clue right there that, we're not going to use it.

00;54;19;29 - 00;54;27;21
Speaker
all right, well, look, I really appreciate your time and answer some questions and talking to us about, you know, the

00;54;27;21 - 00;54;31;19
Speaker
being a geophysicist and also some of the work that you're doing it at Nick research.

00;54;31;19 - 00;54;36;26
Speaker
yeah. Look, hang back here for a second. I'm just going to make some closing remarks, but, yeah, really appreciate your time.

00;54;36;26 - 00;54;38;23
Speaker
It's wonderful. And,

00;54;38;23 - 00;54;43;28
Speaker
everybody out there, if I can help you or we can help you in any way, please keep us in mind.

00;54;43;28 - 00;54;46;28
Speaker
All right, hang on, hang on, hang tight. We'll be right back.

00;54;47;00 - 00;54;51;09
Speaker
All right, folks, that does it for this one. another one. Nick, research. Never know.

00;54;51;09 - 00;55;02;13
Speaker
if you, are in need of some help, it sounds like they have a vast, network of people with all kinds of different disciplines and expertise. So, you can always,

00;55;02;13 - 00;55;09;18
Speaker
contact them. And, you know, if you're law enforcement agency and maybe get some help, in, in some areas that you didn't have access to before.

00;55;09;21 - 00;55;12;09
Speaker
So that does it for this one, folks. Thank you very much.

00;55;12;09 - 00;55;16;13
Speaker
have a happy Thursday and we are going to see you soon. So, take care. Bye.