EP 102 | Nikolaos Kalantzis | Digital Signatures

Digital Signatures | EP 102 | Nikolaos Kalantzis | June 13, 2024 | 2PM Eastern

Several months ago, I was invited to a conference in Romania where I saw Nikolaos Kalantzis present some of his research on Digital Signatures. It was a really impressive talk and we had some great discussions about his work. Today, I am happy to say he is my next guest on Forensics Talks!

With a distinguished career that spans forensic handwriting and document examination, Nikolaos has developed a profound expertise in digitally captured signatures, a crucial area in modern forensic science. Starting his training in 2001 and currently serving as a private forensic examiner, Nikolaos has provided expert testimony in various international courts and has been an active researcher and educator in the field. 

This episode titled "Investigating Digital Signatures", will delve into how Nikolaos applies his knowledge to the challenges within digital signatures which are becoming more relevant as digital transactions become increasingly prevalent. 

Don’t miss this fascinating discussion on the forensic aspects of digital signatures and their implications for security and legal processes in our increasingly digital world.

Originally aired on: June 13, 2024

Transcript

00;00;30;06 - 00;00;49;29
Speaker
Hi everyone, it's Eugene here. And welcome to another episode of Forensics Talks. This is going to be episode 102. We're going to be talking about digital signatures with Nicholas Collins's. And he's somebody who I met in Romania a little while back. And I'm really appreciative that he has some time to speak to us today. So got some really interesting things to say.

00;00;50;10 - 00;00;50;28
Speaker
So,

00;00;50;28 - 00;01;08;09
Speaker
as I said, we're going to be talking about digital signatures today and we're going to be talking about Nicholas Collins's. And he started studying in around 1996 with a background in physics. And he also studied under the mentorship of Demetrius Clancy's at the hard to use, laboratory.

00;01;08;09 - 00;01;28;23
Speaker
And I probably didn't say that right. But nonetheless, it's, question documents, studies where he's developed and got exposed to a lot of different aspects of forensic handwriting analysis. And since 2006, Nico has been working as a private forensic examiner. he's been working on cases. He's producing court reports, he's providing expert witness testimony in various international courts.

00;01;28;23 - 00;01;47;03
Speaker
And I know that every time I talk to him, he's in another country or flying around. So, I know that he's busy doing that. you know, aside from his education in physics, he has further education in the forensic sciences from Staffordshire University. we where he also served as a visiting research fellow and now continues as a researcher.

00;01;47;05 - 00;02;13;27
Speaker
Nico has a research focus on, digitally captured signatures. And he's been contributing insights into forensic document examination that blend traditional techniques with modern techniques. And he's been an active contributor to the forensic science community, presenting at numerous international conferences and specialized training and workshops. And his work has been recognized with various, memberships and awards. And, I believe, you know, from when I saw him, I was super, interested in his work.

00;02;13;27 - 00;02;32;11
Speaker
And like I said, I was very fortunate to meet, Nico in Romania, this past year. And I was really sort of tuned in on to his presentation for a number of reasons. And one of them that's really stood out to me. And most of you know that I'm very much, person that deals in the 3D world, so 3D scanning.

00;02;32;11 - 00;02;48;18
Speaker
But, you know, I remember him showing a graph of a 3D, signature and, the fact that, you know, we're not just talking about flat signatures when we're talking about e-signatures and things, we can look at this in another realm. So, I thought that was super cool. So let me bring him in here. And there he is.

00;02;48;18 - 00;03;04;20
Speaker
Nico, how are you? Hello, everyone. Hello, Eugene. Thank you very much for having me. well, thank you, I appreciate it. We had it. We had a good time in Romania, I think. yes, it was a very interesting, conference and very interesting encounter. and I was very fortunate to be able to, to be there. Yeah, yeah.

00;03;04;20 - 00;03;26;17
Speaker
Thank you to, Doctor Jorge Popa for that. And, and also, we had a pretty amazing tour of the Romanian parliament, if you remember that. Yeah. Yep. The palace of the people. That is correct. Yeah. That was a pretty amazing. I think it's the largest, civilian building, in the world today. It's just second largest government building, I think after the Pentagon or something.

00;03;26;17 - 00;03;55;07
Speaker
Yes. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And if we're accurate, then the guide did a very good job. yeah. That was, I don't I don't know how many levels he said are underneath the, you know, the how many floors or levels are running. Kind of remember him saying that, it can withstand something like three nuclear warheads exploding exactly on top of it before it starts having issues and sinks a few millimeters a year.

00;03;55;09 - 00;04;18;12
Speaker
Right? Right. Well, and there was somebody else, Rafael Ksla from Poland, who was there also doing similar kind of work. yeah. He's from, the university in Wroclaw. Rafael is very active, with research and, the handwriting and document examination community for a lot of years. so let me ask you, I want to start with, I guess my plan for today is it's kind of loose.

00;04;18;12 - 00;04;38;02
Speaker
I don't have a specific plan, but I do want to talk to you about your background, how you got started into your field, maybe talk about, what it is that you do and, you know, convey that maybe to some of the students and the academics here and then get into some of the work that you're doing, you know, with digital signatures and some of the work you've already done on just traditional, signatures and signatures.

00;04;38;02 - 00;04;55;14
Speaker
So, let's start with you. So, I want to know a little bit about your background. So, let's go back, wind the clock way back to when you were much younger. And as a kid, let's say, were you the, you know, were you into science, were you into arts or what kind of what kind of a kid were you?

00;04;55;17 - 00;05;19;26
Speaker
Well, we're going back to the 80s, and we're going back with me. Growing up with, my father being a forensic expert, at, the Greek police laboratory, and back in the day, in Greece to be an expert in the forensic, science department would be you have to do more than one type of, examination.

00;05;20;00 - 00;05;44;17
Speaker
So, my father was an expert at two works, firearms and document examination. So, I grew up with, let's say, constant knowledge of, forensic science in general as a concept due to the fact that my father was, exposed and an expert in various fields, which was quite interesting. And then, I, I fell in love with physics.

00;05;44;24 - 00;06;17;15
Speaker
So, I passed the exam center, the physics department at the University of Athens, and started, studying physics. But at the same time, I started my training with, handwriting and document examination with my father. And then when that was completed, I to be to be honest, I wanted more. So, we contacted, the late doctor Manfred Hager, a very good, friend of the family and supporter of the science.

00;06;17;18 - 00;06;44;10
Speaker
Manfred was, a huge influence, I think, for everyone in the forensic handwriting and document examination community operating from Wiesbaden, Germany. being the head of the Forensic Science Institute of the German Federal Police, Buddhist criminal and, Manfred did, train my father. And when I completed my training with my father, I trained with Manfred as well.

00;06;44;12 - 00;07;18;02
Speaker
So that was the beginning of my, handwriting and document examination, journey. And then I wanted more, obviously. So, I went to Staffordshire University. I got a postgraduate degree, postgraduate diploma in forensic science. I got an MSE in question document examination. we started to collaborate with the visiting Research fellowship. Then, I started, looking into forensic societies with the Forensic Science Society in the UK, now the Chartered Society of Forensic Science.

00;07;18;04 - 00;07;58;13
Speaker
I got the Forensic Science Society diploma from the Forensic Science Society and the University of Strathclyde, and I carried on. Now I'm theoretically finishing my PhD at Staffordshire University. but, you know, the, I'm an old school forensic expert, I think, in the sense that, back in the 80s, at least, you would be someone coming for from a pure science degree, from a pure science background specializing in your forensic discipline, something that unfortunately, various, countries around the world and educational systems seems to be going away.

00;07;58;13 - 00;08;30;12
Speaker
We have this trend of having a BSc in forensic science and then a missing forensic science, which is something that always bothered me. So, I always appreciated that is, characteristic of the forensic, scientists I meet around the world on just 100 hand documents. And I think you can detect what the first signs, the first degree that the person has studied is because that is kind of reflected in the way they do the science they specialize in.

00;08;30;15 - 00;08;59;28
Speaker
so, I have I'm always a physicist at heart, you know. So, when did you first sort of begin taking on a lot of cases, a lot of case work? we are talking back in 2006. So, in 2000, 2001, I finished my basic training, and then we did, more, you know, on the job training. And then in 2005, 2006, that's when I completed that part of the practical training as well.

00;08;59;28 - 00;09;29;18
Speaker
And I was ready to, I assume, my duties as, handwriting expert, so that when I started, that's when I started, having cases in Greece and then, slowly we progressed. And in 2003, we decided to open the first private laboratory in Greece. that occupies more than one handwriting experts. This is weird, but in Greece, that's usually the norm to work alone.

00;09;29;18 - 00;10;03;05
Speaker
And we are still the only private laboratory, to operate in Greece. So right now, we have, we have seven people staff. We have four, forensic handwriting and document examiners. We have quality managers, secretaries and stuff like that. and, I started locally, I guess, and then slowly through my academic career, I guess, to an extent, I started having exposure to, people, legal offices, cases outside of Greece.

00;10;03;05 - 00;10;34;24
Speaker
And now I am, we do have cases, abroad, which is interesting because, on one hand, it's the same science, right? But on the other hand, you have the complexities of different, legal system, different requirements, different, reporting systems, which is a challenge. But at the same time, it's very exciting to be able to go through the process and, properly testify, present evidence in, different court systems.

00;10;34;26 - 00;11;03;18
Speaker
Yeah. And get that perspective from different areas. And, yeah, I like that the way you report and things like that. A very interesting you mentioned your PhD, and so could you tell us briefly what you are working on and how far along are you? Well, the thesis has to do with, calibrating the, the force dimension in, digital capture signatures.

00;11;03;21 - 00;11;33;07
Speaker
And I know it's going to sound very weird, but, digital capture signatures, the biometric data they capture when you execute your signature information, that's x, y the, position of the stylus on, the surface of your digitizer time, the, time signature of when the event is captured and force essentially in, the form of pressure levels from your pressure sensor inside the stylus.

00;11;33;10 - 00;12;07;08
Speaker
So, that aspect of the data, the pressure levels, usually obeys whatever kind of, components you have in your system. So, or it can be 512 pressure levels, 1024 pressure levels, 2048 pressure levels, whatever. But nowhere did I find when I started, studying this thing, a correlation between the force exercised in physical units in Newtons to the assigned pressure levels.

00;12;07;10 - 00;12;42;02
Speaker
And here you can already see the physicist hiding behind things. so, what I studied and what I did was, to create, an experimental mechanism to actually, calculate the exercise force correlated to the assigned pressure levels, calibrate the devices and start comparing. And what I find out is that different devices, different models, let's say, of digitizer will obey a different rule of associating exercise force to assign pressure levels.

00;12;42;02 - 00;13;13;02
Speaker
Which means if you are comparing, two signatures captured with different equipment, and you're looking at pressure level 800, that corresponds to different force for each device. and what I developed is normalization method where you do the calculations, you do the calibrations, you, you calculate from your data, an equation. And I'm very happy because I got to name an equation, the zeta function because it's the z axis.

00;13;13;02 - 00;13;47;18
Speaker
Right. So, you can have, you can calculate your zeta function. And then through the inverse zeta function you can give me pressure levels. And I will give you the original exercise force. So when you're having two different sets of data from different, solutions from different digitizes, if, if you have them calibrated and you have the zeta functions and the inverse data functions, you can transfer, you can translate both sets of data to, Newton's or Newton's whatever and do the proper, comparison.

00;13;47;21 - 00;14;09;11
Speaker
So that's, that's, the whole physics thing and where I am. Well, 2 or 3 chapters missing and was I've been saying I had this discussion on Monday. I was at Stanford University and, teaching and then, we went for dinner with my professor, and he was like, you know, where are we with the thesis? I was like, everything is there still?

00;14;09;13 - 00;14;28;16
Speaker
It's in here, which is true. It just needs to get out. And, my professor, Randy Platt, he knows me very well. And he was like, when do you think this is going to be written? I was like, August, definitely August. And he was like, do you have any international travel planned? Like long flying? I was like, yes, I'll be going to the States.

00;14;28;16 - 00;14;49;06
Speaker
So, it was like, yeah, okay, I know you're going to write it there. So yeah, you know, right when you fly, you're alone. You're not going to, receive any client calls or lawyers or whatever. So, it's time for you to focus on work. So that's what I'm, I'm aiming not. Right. Well, let's we're going to. I think we'll kind of come back to this in a little bit.

00;14;49;13 - 00;15;11;06
Speaker
so, let's talk about you as, or maybe let's talk in general about forensic handwriting and document examination and question documents. how would you describe what you do or what people do in this particular area? So, if somebody is looking to get into this particular area, how would you describe it to them? Or maybe sometimes when you testify you have to explain what you do.

00;15;11;12 - 00;15;33;04
Speaker
So, what's the best way to describe the kinds of things you do? Well, the answer to that, the quickest answer to that is that we examine everything that has to do with the document, which means we, examine the authenticity of handwriting signatures and the document itself. And then it has to do with the peculiarities of the case.

00;15;33;04 - 00;16;01;09
Speaker
You might have, and this is a practical comment. It also has to do with who is, approaching you and if they really know what they're talking about or if they know what you are able to provide as a forensic handwriting and document examiner. So, for example, in Greece, the Caesar problem, people do not know, the, the full arsenal of a proper, forensic laboratory may offer for a document case.

00;16;01;11 - 00;16;29;15
Speaker
And what happens is we have a sort of interview to find out all the information regarding the case, and then we are the ones, dictating the mandate that we can, examine and follow for a case. So, we are like, okay, tell us the case so as the documents, and we will come back to you with, a detail, description of the mandate that we can process.

00;16;29;17 - 00;16;57;25
Speaker
so that is not outside of the scope. And, we have cases where people will think, okay, like, you know, is the signature genuine or is it the forgeries or something like that? But you could have more information pertaining to the authenticity of a document looking at the document itself, whether it is, originally executed, the signature on the document or if it's some sort of Photoshop or is there if there are other discrepancies on the document and so on.

00;16;57;27 - 00;17;16;21
Speaker
a very good example that I will stop the description because I'm getting carried away. this was the during the first few months when we opened the laboratory, we had, legal office with which we've worked in the past. And they came to us, and they were like, listen, this is the situation we have.

00;17;16;24 - 00;17;48;06
Speaker
we have a dispute for two, receipts for rent. the tenant didn't pay. They had a good relationship with the owner of the establishment who, suffered, from, Alzheimer's disease. And when they ended up in court, the tenant, produced two receipts that were exactly the amount he owed, including, the taxes for it being overdue, which is weird.

00;17;48;09 - 00;18;15;15
Speaker
And the owner looked at the signatures and said, okay, you know, these look authentic. Maybe he approached me, and I was in, a different state. I thought we were ten years back when we were friends. Whatever. And then he died. So, the family came to me with the question whether we could look at the sequence of the signatures versus the formation and the amount on the receipts.

00;18;15;17 - 00;18;39;24
Speaker
And I told them, you know, there's no crossing. That's not something we can look at, but show me some signatures of, of that person. And what I saw when we started investigating was the authenticity of the signatures, which they never disputed through the story of the case. And we ended up, finding out that these signatures were forgeries.

00;18;39;24 - 00;19;05;22
Speaker
And we wrote a report, and the other side settled, before the court date. So that's, that's a trajectory of a case that the client or the legal representative, couldn't figure out. And that's why you have to talk to the expert. Then you have to see, what kind of information can be, investigated through the various aspects of our science.

00;19;05;24 - 00;19;25;19
Speaker
I want to ask you about the impressions you have over the years that you've been working, of how your area has, how this discipline has changed. But if we go back to, like, traditional, examination with pen and paper, let's maybe start there, we'll treat that and then we can move into the digital realm. But, how?

00;19;25;19 - 00;19;43;06
Speaker
Well, I saw a lecture you did once. And so, I'll ask the question because I think it's pretty interesting for people to know. And that is how old or how long ago were some of the first signatures, like, around. I mean, signatures must have been around for a long time. People made their mark, you know, on the when you watch those shows, they say make your mark kind of thing or something from way back.

00;19;43;08 - 00;20;11;08
Speaker
Well, well, the concept of the autograph of me producing some sort of writing with my name to identify my person goes back to Mesopotamia. It's like, 2 or 3000 BC. So that's like 5000 years ago. That's how long ago we figured out that, hey, we can, express ourselves in our, identity through writing. Right? So, it has been around since, since then.

00;20;11;11 - 00;20;51;11
Speaker
if I'm not mistaken, the first instance where a signature and handwritten signature is, required for a transaction to be, legally valid, we go to, to the United Kingdom. I think, 1700 or something, where for transactions that will, take place after one year or for a certain, amount of land transactions like that, you had to have a signature, on the contract to make it valid.

00;20;51;14 - 00;21;15;00
Speaker
And this is where the confusion with the term electronic signature, in my opinion, comes from, because the signature as the product is something I produce with a form of handwriting. It could be a pen, it could be a spray gun, whatever, to identify my person. But at the same time, it's a tool I use to authenticate, a transaction.

00;21;15;00 - 00;21;38;22
Speaker
Right. So, when the computer people, let's say, started figuring out that in the digital world, you need some sort of tool, some sort of procedure to authenticate the digital, transaction, the digital auction, whatever they said. Oh, you know what? We're going to call it the electronic signature. And they're right in the aspect of the use of this procedure.

00;21;38;22 - 00;22;02;17
Speaker
But at the same time, you have confusion because, a one time password you receive on your phone that is an electronic signature or a smartcard with a certificate or whatever, that is an electronic signature, but it has nothing to do with the execution of a signature with your hand in the writing instrument, which is also associated with the term signature.

00;22;02;17 - 00;22;35;12
Speaker
Right. So, it's this whole concept of signing and providing your approval. Your person approval that leads to the confusion. Okay. what methods, are they I mean, are the methods very well established when it comes to, you know, examining and analyzing, you know, physical ink signatures, you know, when it comes to papers, is, is everybody working on the same page in, in this discipline or different people are trying different things?

00;22;35;15 - 00;23;03;23
Speaker
Well, this is a tricky question. I can say that from the aspect of science, you have one method, and that's the scientific method. We all follow. if you have a properly trained expert who also base the rules because you can, you know, you can encounter various combinations of, these requirements, with respect to the uniformity of the method, this is, this can be political to an extent.

00;23;03;25 - 00;23;39;21
Speaker
I would start the answer by going back to the 90s and the whole Daubert, situation and how every discipline, including forensic handwriting and document examination had to prove that, you know, what we do is science and that, in my opinion, which is a blessing. What happened to the forensic community? Community through Daubert is a blessing because it, pushed us into the necessity of being very strict with the method we're using and not allow for improvisation or, whatever used to happen back in the days.

00;23;39;23 - 00;24;12;15
Speaker
so now we do have a solid method and then you have to look at different territories and what kind of documents are valid as guidance documents. So, for example, in in Europe we have the European Network of Forensic Science institutes and see. Right, which is the only organization that is recognized by the European Union is responsible for forensic science within the European Union and is broken apart in different work groups depending on the forensic disciplines.

00;24;12;15 - 00;24;38;22
Speaker
So, for forensic handwriting examination, we have fixed European network of forensic handwriting experts. and I am, very lucky to serve in the steering committee of since 2019. So, and fix has produced the best practice manual for forensic handwriting examination. Okay. And the best practice manual is not the textbook. It's, what I would call a cookbook offer methodology.

00;24;38;22 - 00;25;01;08
Speaker
You are supposed to apply when you're trying to determine authenticity of handwritten entries or signatures. So, we have these documents. We have, other institutions in the United States and so on. And they are parallel to each other. It is the same method, but you have, different specifics, which have to do with legal frameworks.

00;25;01;08 - 00;25;20;19
Speaker
And so on. Who are some of the early people who had to deal with the transition from, you know, pen and paper to digital? You know, these people writing on these tablets and these pads kind of thing. are there are there are some early people that, you know, that you would say are like pioneers in that area too.

00;25;20;21 - 00;25;45;20
Speaker
Well, it depends on, on the aspects from which you're looking at it. I'm from the forensic side of things. Right. So, this technology was very well integrated in everyday transactions. By the time we had to jump into the game. you have the pattern recognition people who, have been, very active in this field, on a separate level with separate use.

00;25;45;23 - 00;26;14;06
Speaker
And, the way that the forensic community, is trying to adjust to this new, technology is, is different than one would expect. It's not like someone, consult the forensic community before they roll out something. It's not about that. They roll out something because it makes sense. And it helps, the industry or whatever. And then we're calling to say, okay, hold on, hold on.

00;26;14;12 - 00;26;41;21
Speaker
What are you doing right now? That's not very safe or we cannot do, forensic investigation or these are the requirements in order to do the forensic investigation. in, in Europe, we are lucky to have the Adas regulation, which is, a statutory document of the European Union. It was written in 20 1418, came in full effect in, October, around October of 2018.

00;26;41;23 - 00;27;09;22
Speaker
The Adas regulation is a document that describes the requirement for an electronic signature, in order for the electronically signed document to be legally valid. Okay. So, you have all these requirement sets that, do not address solely the digital capture signature world. They, talk about, security of all types of electronic signatures that define what these and what is not legal.

00;27;09;22 - 00;27;44;23
Speaker
But right now, for example, I'm working with, with a colleague from the States giving full back on, discussing how, the legality is not necessarily, forensic validity. So, the fact that you may have a properly, signed digital document and, you can use it for your legal transactions doesn't mean that I, the forensic expert, can do my job into, detecting the authorship or the connection to some dossier author.

00;27;44;23 - 00;28;05;08
Speaker
And I'll give you an example for that. you may have, a digital certificate on a USB stick with a Pin number. Right. And that's a valid electronic signature. And I may use this, tool to sign an electronic document and send it to you, and that is fine, but I can give that to my colleague and tell them.

00;28;05;08 - 00;28;33;20
Speaker
You know what? It's, 245. We have until three to send the document. Here's the certificate. That's the pin number. Send the document. And that over there. That's the, the term for this is decoupling. The signature has been removed from the author. And that is a huge problem for, the realm of electronic signatures and, that these were.

00;28;33;23 - 00;28;58;22
Speaker
And I'm not saying this just because I'm a forensic handwriting, a document examiner, but that's where the biometric signatures and specifically the digital capture signature, the handwritten signature, is separated from everything else because you need to have biometric data so that you do not have decoupling. And you are certain that whenever you see this type of electronic signature, it is connected to the author.

00;28;58;25 - 00;29;25;00
Speaker
And the second advantage of the digital capture signature is the fact that it expresses intent. So, every signature is different. And when I execute the, a signature I executed ad hoc for this specific action. It's not static, it's dynamic. So, I'm not attacking the fingerprint people, but, for example, a fingerprint is static, and we know that it can be replicated and so on.

00;29;25;02 - 00;29;53;13
Speaker
So, you have multiple levels where the digital version of the handwritten signature is far better for other formats of electronic signature, but at the same time, you have confusion with what with the terminology, what an electronic signature is. And we see that, in a lot of legislation, when they start talking about electronic signatures and within the same document, the switch to the electronic handwritten signature, and then they go back to the electronic signature.

00;29;53;13 - 00;30;16;10
Speaker
So, and you try and understand what they're trying to say, and then you trying to understand how you're going to apply these in a practical solution in a bank organization. And so on. So, it's very, very, challenging. Okay. So, if I separate this, just to be clear, we could be it and you can correct me, but in my mind right now I'm saying that there's the written pen and paper signature.

00;30;16;15 - 00;30;36;07
Speaker
There's a digitally captured signature which is you've still signed something and it's, it's getting, encoded in a binary format or something like that, or it's, you know, and you're recording all this data and then there's digital, there's a digital signature, which is like pins and codes and things like that. It is that or did you break it out?

00;30;36;09 - 00;31;06;17
Speaker
so, the time here is 930, which means, seven hours ago I was telling the exact same, definition to, some bank personnel that we were trying in the laboratory. So, the electronic signature is an umbrella term that involves a lot of different things, including the digital capture signatures. the electronic signature is a piece of code that you are going to use as a signature in the usability way of what a signature is.

00;31;06;17 - 00;31;30;05
Speaker
Right? And you embed that code in another digital document to use it as a signature. So, the digital signature or electronic signature can be a digital capture signature. It can be a password, it can be a digital certificate, it can be encryption a smartcard, whatever OTP is an electronic signature. You can scan a signature or send a photo of your face that can be considered an electronic signature.

00;31;30;07 - 00;31;53;13
Speaker
If that piece of electronic code is used and embedded in another document to be used as signature. Okay, what can you get from a digitally captured signature that you can't get obviously from, you know, just a pen and paper signature? Like what kind of data is available to you that maybe you didn't expect or that makes it so valuable?

00;31;53;16 - 00;32;27;03
Speaker
Well, I'll start the other way around. So, we have proven as a scientific community that, forensic examination of handwriting a signature is a scientific methodology. And when you apply this ideology, you get the right results. We have proficiency test, we have the specific method, and so on and so on. that specific method rests on the forensic examination of certain characteristics, some of which are pictorial characteristics, some of which are dynamic characteristics.

00;32;27;09 - 00;32;50;00
Speaker
Okay. With all the complications of how you do the examination, your known material, and so on. So, when we look at the digital capture signatures, what we trying to do instead of reinventing the wheel is to see how our given methodology on pen and paper signatures can be applied to the new digital product. Okay, so that's the introduction to the whole discussion.

00;32;50;03 - 00;33;19;03
Speaker
Then I need to specify that, digitally capture signatures. The digital product of digitizing your signing action, right, is dependent both on the software and the hardware solution from the hardware side of things, you have different technologies. You have resistive technology, capacitive technology, electro magnetic resonance technology. Right. Different technologies and different technologies would capture, things differently.

00;33;19;03 - 00;33;45;11
Speaker
So resistive, for example, will capture, everything that that exercises force on your digitizer. Electro magnetic resonance doesn't have to do with that. It's your pressure sensor inside your stylus. Only your stylus will register force, which means with one solution, if you actually touch with your hand the digitizer, you're going to mess up your data with EMR. You don't care about that.

00;33;45;13 - 00;34;17;17
Speaker
so different solutions give different quality of data. This is getting really complex. I can see your frustration. No, no, no, I this is good though. but what happened is, a few years back, we had a research project running, through and fix the Group eight project. And one of the products of, of these resources was, a paper we published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, and that was, a recommendation to the industry, paper.

00;34;17;17 - 00;34;37;04
Speaker
This started initially as a letter towards the major, companies in the digitizer industry where we, the forensic science people, told them that in order for us to do forensic science with digital capture signatures, we need to have these minimum requirements. And then we figured out that, you know what this is? This is important. This has to be published as a paper.

00;34;37;11 - 00;34;59;29
Speaker
So, there is a reference to what is necessary from our perspective in order to be able to process the data. and just a quick note, it's not just the hardware, it's the software as well. And one of the things we do how to use is we evaluate, the deployment of solutions in specific environments like banks, governments and so on.

00;35;00;03 - 00;35;35;14
Speaker
And unfortunately, we have encountered solutions where the hardware is perfect. It's very good. We've tested it with other solutions as well, but the software is lacking, and it produces unreliable results. So, if we bypass this whole discussion and we assume that we have a very good functioning solution with the proper code from the software side and the proper hardware, then, we look at what exactly is the digital capture signature and the digital capture signature.

00;35;35;14 - 00;36;11;21
Speaker
As I said earlier, is just a set of numbers X, y, force and time. Using those four, data channels, those for groups of numbers, you can create a multitude of visualizers of digitally capture signatures. And in order to approach the characteristics that I mentioned earlier for the pen and paper signature, the pictorial characteristics and the dynamic characteristics, you are looking at different visualizations in order to transform form.

00;36;11;23 - 00;36;39;23
Speaker
No, not transform. Well, to apply and a little bit adjust the criteria and the characteristics you're looking at. But what you said is it's a very interesting, point. And that has to do with, the new information that you might get. Why, for example, a digital capture signature may provide you with more information than your, traditional pen and paper signature.

00;36;39;26 - 00;37;06;26
Speaker
And there are two aspects to this. The first one has to do with accuracy. So, for example, you have amazing accuracy in, the x and y, coordinates that can go to one tenth of the millimeter, which my eyes or my rulers cannot calculate. Right. and not including all the automation, that you might have with, large scale, sample collections.

00;37;06;29 - 00;37;47;00
Speaker
So, you have that aspect and then you have a huge jump from qualitative analysis to quantitative analysis. Everything I mentioned with respect to, the beasts, the research and the force, aspect of the digital capture signatures when we are looking at dynamic characteristics in, traditional pen and paper signatures, if you read the report, you will find comments with respect to the exercise pressure, the speed of execution, the, fluid and fluency of the written line and so on, which are all qualitative characterizations of the dynamic aspect of writing.

00;37;47;03 - 00;38;14;20
Speaker
In the DCS situation, we have more accurate quantitative measurements of that specific, dynamic aspect of writing. We have time, for the first time ever, we have velocity that we can quantify and measure and discuss about average values, errors, and so on. We have, the pressure levels. Or if you go through the zeta function relative, we have force in Newtons.

00;38;14;27 - 00;38;47;07
Speaker
So suddenly we are moving from the qualitative to the quantitative. And I said several times within the last years, the next generation of handwriting experts that will be trained on this technology will make us look completely obsolete, because their perception of the writing process is going to be on a different level. And that introduces the other aspect apart from time, which we have access to through the proper digital capture signature, technology.

00;38;47;13 - 00;39;17;07
Speaker
So, if you are using, EMR technology equipment, EMR, it's electro magnetic resonance. It doesn't require any contact between the stylus and the digitizer in order for them to transmit, data, which means within, a specific height from your active area of the digital laser, the position of the stylus is recorded. So, we are able to study the inner trajectories during the execution of the signature, and that these a wealth of information.

00;39;17;07 - 00;40;10;02
Speaker
We can see formations, that obviously are invisible. We can see behaviors like, for example, when we study, forgery atoms, we can see the erratic behavior between the different formations, because the forgeries studying the source material or whatever, but also in a more, philosophical level, the at least for me personally, the perception of what the signature is, changes completely when we're looking at the signature that has three strokes, for example, because we see those three separated strokes and because our analysis is based on different strokes and so on, we perceive the signature is three segmented elements, all part of the same motion, but three, segmented elements.

00;40;10;05 - 00;40;55;11
Speaker
Looking at the inner trajectories, I personally realized that the entire formation, including the trajectories, is the one complete fine motor program recall from my brain and executed through my neural muscular pathway of the hand and so on. And that changes completely the perception of the handwritten product. That's why I say someone who, doesn't, get upgraded in his perception through the technology, but begins his understanding of the handwriting process through this technology, they're going to have a completely different, and, I believe, better perception of writing than, the old school people.

00;40;55;13 - 00;41;14;13
Speaker
I have two questions, and I'm probably going to forget one, but the first one, they're very practical. One is obviously, if you're doing research, you'll have the instruments with you, the devices, you'll do a lot of work, you gain access to it. But in the real world, if I go to, you know, a rental car agency or a bank or something like that, and I digitally sign something, how do you get access to that?

00;41;14;13 - 00;41;35;14
Speaker
Is it easy to get access after a month or, you know, a few weeks, a year or something like that? And the second question is what tools do you have today that maybe you didn't have before? Is there a special software written to analyze these things? Is this all stuff you're doing in Matlab or in, you know, your people are writing scripting to do their own analysis.

00;41;35;21 - 00;41;56;17
Speaker
So yeah. So, the first one, how do you get access to these things and what kind of data is available to you. And the second one is what technology do you have? What software, what analysis tools are at your disposal? Okay. I will do my best to answer the questions. and I say that because they're complicated questions and there's no global answer.

00;41;56;19 - 00;42;27;22
Speaker
And, I say this because accessing the biometric data in a disputed digital document, it's primarily a legal issue. Who has access, who can decrypt? Different places around the world, have different, approaches in, the whole concept of, data protection. And in Europe we have GDPR. We have issues like this. If you go in the vicinity of Europe, but outside of Europe, that notion doesn't even exist.

00;42;27;25 - 00;42;55;17
Speaker
I have been, I was training at some point of specific police force. We had a discussion with a ministry of interior of the country and started talking about the complications of GDPR and stuff like that, and they stopped me and said, we don't care about that stuff that these doesn't apply here. Okay. So that's a complex situation, but I will distance the experts from this for the following reason.

00;42;55;19 - 00;43;30;26
Speaker
For, a digitally signed document to be secure or do you have to have encryption? Right. You have to have your public private key, encryption and so on. So, if we take the example of a bank in Greece, right, I go to the bank, I sign for the transaction, that is sealed. And then there is a dispute, only someone with access to the private key can decrypt the biometric PDF and extract the biometric data.

00;43;30;28 - 00;43;55;07
Speaker
And that is serious business, which means the people who have the duty to keep the keys, which depending on your legal system, it could be the bank. It could be someone outside the bank, whatever. They're the ones who are going to decrypt the document. If I have a case and, you give me the biometric PDF from a bank, since there's nothing we can do, we cannot crack it open.

00;43;55;09 - 00;44;32;13
Speaker
We will never. And we should never, in my opinion, receive the private key to perform the decryption and extract the biometric data. So the forensic expert will be given the biometric data through a process that should be monitored through court or, a specific procedure with the, the country and so on, and, or and that is very important because, in the physical world, when you sign the document, that signature is associated with the paper, with the document itself.

00;44;32;20 - 00;45;04;12
Speaker
So, we are talking about the original document, the uniqueness of the original document. In the digital world, things are a little bit different. There is no one unique original file. You can have multiple files that are copies of each other or for example, the, the classic example I give when I do these lectures is like, you have, in a bank, you going to have a Citrix system, which means as soon as a file is created, it's simultaneously created in various different servers at the same time.

00;45;04;12 - 00;45;27;18
Speaker
Right. So which one is the original? Is it one file, is it eight files. And if it's eight files, if I copy one to a USB stick, is that what. Not an original. So, we see it from the or concept of the original document to the concept of the integrity of the digital document, which is outside the scope of the forensic handwriting and document examiners.

00;45;27;21 - 00;46;04;19
Speaker
but it is reflected, for example, if you look at appendix number six of the best practice management plan that deals with the, the method of, determining authenticity of digital capture signature, it is clearly stated there as a cautionary mark that whatever kind of conclusion, the expert reaches its conclusion with respect to the authenticity of biometric data, not the digital file that, supposedly has the biometric data, because that's, outside of the scope of forensic handwriting and document examination.

00;46;04;21 - 00;46;33;08
Speaker
So, I think that answers the first question. And the second question was what to do with, analysis tools that you have at your disposal, right, right. So, as I said earlier, we have, the four data channels that we visualize, in various forms in order to access the same kind of information that we have been trained to access through, your traditional pen and paper signatures.

00;46;33;11 - 00;46;59;26
Speaker
there is, a variation of specialized software that you can use that will visualize, the data. And some of them are good, some of them are bad. I will not start naming names. there's a big discussion with respect to proprietary files. So, if you are the company of digital users, you're going to create your digital capture.

00;46;59;26 - 00;47;22;02
Speaker
Signature files is your own format, and you're going to require that someone gets your software in order to access them. So, we have things like that with, which are a little bit silly, but in the end of the day, your raw data is x, y for some time. Right? And, in the end of the day, if you know what you're doing, you can write your own code.

00;47;22;02 - 00;47;48;07
Speaker
So, for example, we are using a very specific, powerful forensic tool for the analysis and examination, of the standard visualizations that we want to, to look at. But at the same time, I have written code in Python and in our and there are specific cases, situations where I invite something else visualize that is outside of the standard.

00;47;48;13 - 00;48;14;10
Speaker
And I use my code and that is the recommendation. I use that, for example, when we trained, the Cyprus Police, everybody in the, handwriting laboratory was trained in digital capture signatures, but there was one person on desk who was the expert on one of the group and undress his, taking a deep dive into everything.

00;48;14;10 - 00;48;36;02
Speaker
And hopefully he will soon be in a position to use his own code whenever he needs to. because you never know what kind of weird situation you're going to encounter, right? So, it's a mixture. It's knowing what you are looking at, which is very important, utilizing the appropriate forensic software but not being limited from it.

00;48;36;04 - 00;48;54;21
Speaker
Okay. and I'm guessing that there's, participation between yourself and some of the manufacturers of these devices. And, in fact, I remember when we were in Romania, if I'm not mistaken, there was some there was a table there with the, I don't mind saying their name, but it was the Wacken people as well. And I'm sure that there's other manufacturers too.

00;48;54;21 - 00;49;12;19
Speaker
But do you have a good relationship with some of these people, and they're assisting you in your research and helping, or is it a little difficult or. Well, it depends on the company. I mean, Wakeham is, a major player and, they're very cooperative. Namibia is another, big company that does both software and hardware, and we have a good relationship with both of them.

00;49;12;21 - 00;49;49;07
Speaker
And this is clear in the open. It's like I'm not working for either of them, either of them. I'm working with them. There are other companies. it's a very personal thing in the sense that if you don't know someone, you cannot knock on the door and say, hi, this is who I am. Send me some devices. So, some companies will send us devices for calibration or for, assistance, consultancy, other companies, when, we are encountering incident or issues or the possibility of, ending up with casework from those devices, then we buy them because we know we need to.

00;49;49;13 - 00;50;08;00
Speaker
And this is, this is a standard recommendation to police laboratories or other laboratory when we train them because everybody will be like, right, right. So, what should we buy? And I tell them, I can tell you to buy this, this digitizer because it's the best digitizer there is, but it nobody in your country or your area of activity has this digitizer.

00;50;08;00 - 00;50;37;09
Speaker
And then what's the point? Unless you want to do research you never going to get a case from that. If in your area of operation, you have obsolete, digitizer bar digitizer or whatever, and you have to buy them and study them. So, when a case comes through the door, you already know the device, you know, the, unique characteristics of the device, possible problems and so on, and are in a position to examine the data is an expert.

00;50;37;09 - 00;50;59;15
Speaker
So, it's a little bit it's a little bit complex. But generally speaking, we do have good relation relations with the companies. And when for example, your client is a bank or your client is the company that will deploy the solution to the bank, and they ask your involvement for consultation and evaluation of their solution.

00;50;59;17 - 00;51;32;10
Speaker
And you start, discovering problems and bugs and whatever. Then inevitably, the companies will be involved to assist and other clarify that it's the developers’ issue or it's a hardware issue. And we had a situation where through this type of cooperation, we ended up talking to the manufacturers, working closely with the manufacturers to overcome, mistakes in the, or the source material of the hardware and so on.

00;51;32;12 - 00;51;55;20
Speaker
When it comes to the types of cases that you're working on, I mean, some maybe are like, you know, just trying to authenticate something or, you know, whether or not it's a real, you know, key, really came from this person or not as a signature. But maybe there's going to be forgeries and like, really, people doing malicious things and maybe there's even other things, some things that are still maybe criminal in nature, but maybe have a broader scope or more international impact or something like that.

00;51;55;20 - 00;52;21;00
Speaker
But can you talk about what are some of the more common types of cases you typically get there? you mean generally speaking? Generally speaking, not specific. Generally speaking, the signature can be used anywhere signature in handwriting. So, and depending on the country and the legal, system, you will find peculiarities of, what is the most common type and so on.

00;52;21;00 - 00;52;52;26
Speaker
Also depending, the local, situation. So, for example, in 2008, 2009, we had the new law in Greece, where unclaimed land or whatever would either be claimed or, confiscated by the state or whatever. And then we had this surge of, fake, wills that surfaced because, you know, it's 2008, but, hey, we found the last will and testament from 1979 because that person died in 98.

00;52;52;29 - 00;53;18;15
Speaker
And guess what? They sold to me and so on. So, you have these, unique events that will, be associated with specific type of cases. but the most common ones we have to do with, last will and testament. So that's, that's a classic. And I think it's a class all over the world. and then I would rank second everything that has to do with banks like loans or transactions.

00;53;18;18 - 00;53;57;18
Speaker
And then you're going to weird things like, you know, contracts or receipts or agreements, or anything that has to do with, an actual document, it might not involve signing as a part of the investigation. It could be writing threatening letters. So, everything, has to do with documents. we've seen it. Okay. There's, I remember seeing one of your presentations and you were showing a number of different examples of, like, okay, know, and you kind of put two signatures side by side and then, you know, hey, is it a is it a, the same, the original, you know, author or is it a forgery.

00;53;57;18 - 00;54;13;26
Speaker
Is it somebody else? So, you know, I did okay, I did okay, I did get 1 or 2 wrong. But what I did okay, and some of them were really tricky. But, you know, I'm wondering about the transition when people write with a pen, you know, on paper, they may write their signature one way, and there may already be some natural variation about how somebody signs their name.

00;54;13;26 - 00;54;31;19
Speaker
Or maybe they change it sometimes. But then when you go to digital, like, I know for me, when I have to write on those pads, I hardly, make it accurate because I'm just like doing this little script. Sometimes they want you to use your finger or something, and you're, you're doing, like, this little funny thing. So, you're not even using a stylus or something like that.

00;54;31;19 - 00;54;54;03
Speaker
So, you know, how do you how do you manage? the difference is just the variability between the same person and all the different signatures that could arise from using these different devices. Okay. I need to give you three answers to this. Okay. So, I will start with the last comment, because the last comment doesn't have to do with the transition from pen and paper to digital.

00;54;54;05 - 00;55;22;21
Speaker
and let me quickly say I'm going to answer the, the thing you said with respect to variation. Then I will answer the transition from, pen and paper to digital, and then I will destroy the concept that using your finger is actually a signature. So, with respect to, the variation, you are very right in the sense that, first of all, no two signatures are 100%, identical.

00;55;22;23 - 00;55;49;14
Speaker
If they are, then at least one of the two is a forgery, because it's a dynamic, product. So even if I have exactly the same, fine, multiple programs in my head, and I execute 20 signatures, one after the other, the execution pathway through my neuromuscular, network, my hand. It will be different. And that is an intrinsic characteristic of the person who is signing.

00;55;49;14 - 00;56;13;29
Speaker
It might be. I mean, if you look at my father's signature like he's a robot, it's like exactly the same. Exactly the same. ever since I could see his signature until today, and you can see people, who have, very big variation. So why do we have a case? let's make it simple. When we have a pen and paper case and someone ask, okay, is this an original signature or an authentic signature?

00;56;14;02 - 00;56;39;07
Speaker
We need to have a very good, known material, both in quality and in quantity. We have to look at, the signing behavior of the person. within, ideally within the same era of the execution. So, if you give me a question document of this year, I will initially, request nonmaterial plus or minus two years from that era.

00;56;39;14 - 00;57;16;21
Speaker
I would like to see more. I would like to collect samples, but I would really like to see how their signature appeared. you have a more legal, requirement there to safeguard the validity of your material. Like, for example, if it is it, public documents, that guarantee authenticity and so on. But studying your own material, if it's enough and figuring out the natural variations of the nonmaterial, that's how you can, not only detect similarities or differences, but also evaluate them, which is a huge thing.

00;57;16;24 - 00;57;50;26
Speaker
I will carry on with the discussion, as to how we sign, on a glass bottle or whatever with respect to the pen and paper, aspect, everybody things we sign a little bit differently. But one of the things we did, the first thing we did with the Stefan G8 group was, to study three, 3600 signatures from 80 writers from 12 countries or something, and compare the signatures on paper with the digital capture signatures.

00;57;50;29 - 00;58;17;12
Speaker
And from a forensic point of view, we found that there is no noticeable difference. and this is a published paper. It was published in Forensic Science International. And, we can have a reference or, comments or whatever, but from the forensic point of view, I consider this, already settled. The signing pattern is the same.

00;58;17;18 - 00;58;39;01
Speaker
Now, someone might argue that, you know, the first signatures might be different and so on. So, there is a transition period. I will accept that. But the, the analogy that I give is this. Imagine you've always signed with ballpoint pens. You have your favorite BIC, that's the instrument you're using. And suddenly you are given a fountain pen.

00;58;39;04 - 00;58;59;21
Speaker
You're going to freak out. You're going to be like, oh my God, if I'm stationery, the ink will soak the paper. If I try to move fast, the nib will edge the paper. So, what will happen if you start signing? You will adjust the way that you hold the pen and eventually and eventually, it's not very far away.

00;58;59;27 - 00;59;23;17
Speaker
Eventually you're going to be signing, with your same pattern of characteristics using a fountain pen, adjusted to the medium. So, there is an adjustment of the characteristics. But this, this can be explained in study. That's why, for example, when we do whatever, we do, it is important to, to know the writing instrument that is being used.

00;59;23;19 - 00;59;50;04
Speaker
so, from a forensic perspective, for someone who hasn't used the digital signature method just once, but routinely does transactions with their bank or whatever, then yes, you have stability of characteristics you can proceed to the forensic examination, and you can even, mix your material. You can determine the authenticity of pen and paper signature using DXF material and vice versa.

00;59;50;07 - 01;00;15;27
Speaker
Which leads us to the whole finger thing, which is not a digital capture signature. And the whole concept of signing with the finger is problematic on two levels. The first level is the kind of data that is being captured. Okay. We are talking about how, in the digital capture signature, well, world, when you have a stylus and a digitizer, it's not that simple.

01;00;15;27 - 01;00;40;24
Speaker
You have to have the EMR sophisticated method with proper accuracy, resolution and whatnot, all that stuff. And not only don't you have that, you have this as a stylus, which means resistive or whatever in your screen, which means bad data. Okay, that's one part of the problem. But the most important aspect of the problem is that you are not trained to sign with your index finger.

01;00;40;26 - 01;01;02;28
Speaker
This, the analogy I gave to the banking people today was it's the same as signing with your foot. You will giggle a little bit, but eventually you will grab the pen with your toes, and you will, do a scribble that kind of resembles your signature because the signature part, in your brain will be the same.

01;01;02;28 - 01;01;39;12
Speaker
But the neuromuscular pathway is different. It's not trained, which means a if you execute five signatures with your foot, they're going to be different. B I can produce a scribble that looks like those bad attempts of, signing your signature with your foot. So how can I, examine and, and request the accuracy of the forensic method or something like a finger signature, or even worse, a signature executed with the mouse?

01;01;39;14 - 01;02;07;11
Speaker
You. We think that. Oh, come on, it's the same shape. You will do it? No, not on a forensically. examine a level. So. No, that's not that's a bad option. I know it's trained in specific countries because it's easy. You have the guy there, like, here's your parcel. Put the signature there. But the, the risk factor there of a customer saying, I didn't sign that and proceeding to legal action.

01;02;07;11 - 01;02;34;11
Speaker
It's minimum, right. It's nothing. You're not going to nobody would accept to allow a finger signing solution to manage their savings account. I'm going to bring up a question here. this from Rolo here. He says calligraphy much harder than normal writing, which is a survey. Even broader question is, are there certain types of writing which are more, more difficult or easier to analyze?

01;02;34;11 - 01;03;01;26
Speaker
And maybe just because of the way it's written or something? I don't know. I just curious about your thoughts there. Well, it depends, I mean, calligraphy if calligraphy is printing specific letterforms with slow execution to be within your, with, within the form that you're trying to copy, I wouldn't necessarily classify it that as natural handwriting, which is what we examine.

01;03;01;29 - 01;03;30;08
Speaker
So, we examine the natural, behavior of writing and signing that has your intrinsic characteristics. It has, an automation. It's the automation that makes it unique. so, you mentioned, some of the lectures where I saw signatures and discuss with an authentic and so on in one of these lectures that are available, there's, I think I have a slide where I have, an authentic signature and I have two forgeries.

01;03;30;10 - 01;03;53;26
Speaker
And when you're talking about forgeries, forgery strategies of the three, three hand simulation, you have two extremes. One is for me to try and get the shape right, which means I'm trying to copy something. So, I will try and maybe I will get the same very close to the original one. But the execution is going to be slow and very unnatural.

01;03;53;28 - 01;04;25;25
Speaker
The other extreme is for me just to try and execute a very natural looking signature. So, I'm going to be really fast. But because it's not my authentic signature, it's not an automated procedure. So, the shape will be wrong. And there is a possibility that characteristics of my, signature will appear in the simulation attempt. Okay, so if we're talking about a trained calligrapher who will say, now I will execute this type of font or whatever, I would be very cautious because I would classify that.

01;04;25;25 - 01;04;47;11
Speaker
Is that an unnatural type of printing of writing, which doesn't fall into the category of what we're looking at. What are some of the big topics or hot issues right now in this discipline? Are there things which have come up recently? They're like, oh boy, we really need to look at this. is there anything you can point out to us?

01;04;47;13 - 01;05;16;09
Speaker
Well, it depends on the trend and the area around the world, I guess. I mean, of course, digitally capture signatures, and everything that has to do with that is fairly recent and, different, different laboratories try to play catch up and so on rather than laboratories are trained or, are already practicing this, another aspect of which is taking advantage of this technology for your traditional pen and paper cases.

01;05;16;12 - 01;05;47;05
Speaker
So, for example, our collaboration with Cyprus Police initially addressed the issue of what will happen when we get the first DXF case and how well equipped and trained we are to, to actually analyze, the disputed discs. But then we move to the second level, which was, deploying, this technology for collecting, handwriting and signature samples to be used as comparison material for disputed pen and paper signatures.

01;05;47;11 - 01;06;26;16
Speaker
So that's also a very hot subject that, is, very, very interesting. we have other issues that have we do have to do with handwriting and documents that are always very hot subjects, like for example, printer identification or ink dating, stuff like that. And then you have more, deep issues, like for example, evaluation of your findings or following a specific, method of treating your evidence or the forensic, reasoning behind whether you're using, different propositions, Bayesian system, stuff like that.

01;06;26;16 - 01;07;07;21
Speaker
So, you go deep into the type of evaluation that you are doing. And the best practice of, Manual of Fanfics was, updated in, 2022 and in the level for the first time, included for the first time in appendix on the evaluation of evidence of the different strategies you are following. And as a laboratory manager, I can tell you that from the, administration point of view, you have a lot of issues that are not unique to handwriting and document examination that have to do with, for example, the way that notes are being taken within a laboratory environment, you have to have your, your expert follow the same process,

01;07;07;21 - 01;07;29;11
Speaker
and it has to be easily accessible and, understood by the quality manager, for example. So there are different aspects, but depending on, on the area you that you depending on the forensic society or the people, that are following a specific conference and so on, you will see different trends you mentioned about, you know, being prepared or like whether or not an agency is prepared.

01;07;29;11 - 01;07;50;17
Speaker
And part of that has to be training as well. And when we're talking about these, the DCS or these captured digitally captured signatures, you are you doing a lot of training with for agencies? are there people doing a lot of this in the world? Because I feel like this, I, you know, you don't hear about it a lot, but it must be something that is has a big need.

01;07;50;20 - 01;08;15;14
Speaker
The whole concept with training is this, there are a lot of colleagues, and a lot of laboratories will say, you know what? We haven't had a case, right? It's 2024. We haven't had a case. Where do we have a case? Well, when you have a case, that's then that's too late. I remember that I was, I was, asked to fly to a specific country and train the police, laboratory within Covid, right?

01;08;15;14 - 01;08;37;15
Speaker
Within the months of covet and all the restrictions and the quarantine and all that stuff. And they were pressing because they already had two cases that turned down as a police laboratory because they didn't know how to you what to do. So, you see that? No. If you wait for the 15 to the first case to come through the door, then that's too late.

01;08;37;17 - 01;09;02;01
Speaker
So, there are laboratory who have already seen that, or they've seen the deployment of digitizer and they're like, you know what we need? We need to be ready for when the time comes. And there are other areas like Canada, for example, where people are trained, have trained the Canada Border Services Agency, but they haven't had the case, since I trained them.

01;09;02;01 - 01;09;49;27
Speaker
Right. So why? Because politics or deployment or whatever. I know that eventually this is going to come everywhere. My only concern is that it comes properly deployed and we don't have governments or, situations where the digital capture signature is overlooked in favor of a digital, signature that has no traceability and that is subject to decoupling, because, for example, if we have an automated, email case, well, of signature where there's no real connection between the person signing and the electronically signed document there, then the forensic expert has a very limited, set of services they can provide.

01;09;49;27 - 01;10;11;13
Speaker
And that's a real problem. So, I know you're busy, guy. You fly around, you got cases, you're doing training, you're at Staffordshire, you're bouncing around all the time. So, congratulations. I'll probably getting all kinds of air miles and rewards, but yeah. That helps. Yeah, yeah. but I'm wondering about, and of course, you're finishing your PhD soon, so hopefully that'll come.

01;10;11;13 - 01;10;36;09
Speaker
But what is on the horizon for you? Like what is next for you? What are you looking forward into the future like what are there any particular areas that you want to pursue or that you want to get into, or that you feel are important? Well, we've started working with, Kevin Barkey, quite some time ago on AI and, algorithms engines that will perform, comparison on of handwriting and signatures.

01;10;36;11 - 01;10;59;15
Speaker
and that is, in my opinion, the next big, big thing that is coming. And AI involvement in general inferencing, I mean, document examination procedures. So, it's not it's not trivial. There's not just one use. There are different types of uses. And this is what we are presenting next week in Stockholm in the conference. And we are presenting these, I think, in the States in August as well.

01;10;59;17 - 01;11;36;23
Speaker
So, this passes through the digital signature route because, digitalization of signatures makes things easier. And we are involved in various projects and products actually, of search engines where we provide the third-party academic, let's say, evaluation of the validity of the proposed solution. But I think that is the next big thing that, is consuming me, in a way that and probably dropping in on a half pipe.

01;11;36;25 - 01;11;55;08
Speaker
That's also something I have to achieve within the next year or so. Yes, we should mention that just above you, there, above, on the wall there, there's a couple of boards there. And so, yeah. So you are, a very passionate, border, when you can, I guess. And that is correct. That's important.

01;11;55;08 - 01;12;16;20
Speaker
So, it, you know, it's a great way, great outlet or whatever. So, you, you bring it with you when you testify sometimes maybe keep it in your bag or something. Well, that's the thing. I mean, in Greece we, we have very few skateparks and, they're very limited in the variation of whatever they offer. So, I realize that at some point that that's my mission in life, skate the world.

01;12;16;20 - 01;12;42;06
Speaker
So, if it's not raining wherever I'm going and if there is a skate park nearby, then yes, I will fly with a skate and go visit it. What's the coolest place you skated so far? The coolest one will, I think New York, I mean, New York, pier 64 or something. That was an awesome bowl there. It was amazing.

01;12;42;06 - 01;13;12;04
Speaker
I wasn't able to do much, to be honest, but that was very, very, very impressing. And there are other areas, I mean, one of my favorite places in Zurich, there's a monster, bowl, which is a public park very close to the hotel. I always stay out in Zurich for that reason. And usually what happens is I would go early in the morning before whatever I'm doing case work in Zurich just to skate that bowl before the small children come and make fun of me.

01;13;12;06 - 01;13;32;24
Speaker
but it's nice, you know? I mean, it's different aspects. Zurich, for example, is awesome because it's flat, it has good pay, good pavements. It's, it's very nice to skate through, so. But. Yeah. No, I've been I've been to various places. I've skated to, Namibia, South Africa. Oman of all places.

01;13;32;24 - 01;13;55;15
Speaker
Oman was very interesting. He's had a very nice skate park, the Emirates, wherever, wherever in Europe, of course. And these are all, I mean, these are all business trips, right? These are work trips that you're going on and you're teaching, you're testifying or whatever. And so, yeah, so you're reaching out and again, you know, for people are hearing all these places, that's just a, a sign of, you know, or a small picture of all the places you been and how busy you are.

01;13;55;15 - 01;14;10;23
Speaker
So that's wonderful. look, we're getting on in time, and I know it's a little bit later there, but I, you know, thank you so much for I. I've been trying to get you on for, for some time, you know. Sorry about that. No, no, you're busy guy. And but I appreciate this is a really, you know, a really interesting area.

01;14;10;23 - 01;14;28;22
Speaker
I was really fascinated by your presentation in Romania. you know, looking at all the things and all the things you're doing now, which, you know, could not have been done before the digital era, which I think is fascinating. So, I appreciate it. Okay. Let me put up, I sort of put your, the website up before we go, just in case people have any questions or they want to reach out to you.

01;14;28;26 - 01;14;46;19
Speaker
So, this is your, this is your main web page. Let me go to the home screen here. So, I've got it up here. And, Hercules, I think that's. You say it better than I do. That is correct. Okay. which I like the first part. Chart or Castor. It's the way I look at it in Italian.

01;14;46;19 - 01;15;06;27
Speaker
So, it means paper, right? Yeah. and, also, I'm going to put your LinkedIn. So, anyone who's interested in reaching out to, Nico, here he is on LinkedIn, and you can, catch him there. That's his, profile. So, yeah, you're more than welcome to reach out to him. He's been very kind in responding and answering questions and very well known in the community as well.

01;15;06;27 - 01;15;30;01
Speaker
So, I don't know, you said you got something going on next week, but you also get out to a lot of conferences, too. well, yeah. I mean, I get invited a lot around the world. So, depending on the conference and, people attending and the content and so on. Yes, I will appear here that, because, you know, the research we're doing, it's very current.

01;15;30;04 - 01;15;46;16
Speaker
and, very hot, let's say. So, people are interested. So, to the extent that I can go to conferences, and I don't have a conflict with testimony or whatever, then yes, I will take the opportunity. Okay. Well, look, thank you so much. Hang back for a second. I'm just going to come back to you. I'm just gonna make some closing remarks and, we'll catch up in a bit.

01;15;46;23 - 01;15;49;16
Speaker
Thank you for having me. You didn't. Cheers. Thank you.

01;15;49;16 - 01;15;55;12
Speaker
thank you to all the, people here who have been in the comments and from South America, from Germany, from other places.

01;15;55;19 - 01;16;13;19
Speaker
It's been a pleasure having you. So, we will be back with some different topics and different things. I have some things lined up in the near future or some on, cell phone and WhatsApp, information. I have some other things coming up. Maybe in ballistics, maybe on blood stains, a whole bunch of different areas in for in forensics.

01;16;13;22 - 01;16;19;07
Speaker
So, look, folks, thank you so much. I wish you all the best. Have a happy Thursday, and we'll see you soon. Bye.