EP 109 | Douglas MacGregor | Geographic Profiling

Geographic Profiling | EP109 | Douglas MacGregor | June 26, 2025 | 2 PM Eastern

Join us for Episode 109 of Forensics Talks as we welcome Douglas MacGregor, consultant and IRIS team member, who brings deep expertise in environmental criminology and forensic intelligence analysis. In this session, we’ll explore how geographic profiling helps investigate serial and violent crime, locate missing persons, and support complex investigations involving human trafficking, organized crime, and cold cases.

Douglas will walk us through the practical applications of geographic, spatial, and behavioral data in law enforcement. From crime mapping to locating human remains, learn how these advanced strategies are shaping the future of investigative support and public safety.

Originally aired on: June 26, 2025

Transcript

00;00;30;03 - 00;00;44;22
Unknown
Hey, folks, it's Eugene here. And welcome to another episode of Forensics Talks. This is going to be episode 109. And our guest today is Douglas MacGregor. We're going to be getting right into it today, so I'm not going to be waffling too much here as I usually do,

00;00;44;22 - 00;00;50;01
Unknown
So the guest today is Douglas MacGregor. And he's a consultant and Iris team member.

00;00;50;07 - 00;01;15;24
Unknown
Irises incident response and Investigative strategies. And he provides forensic and investigative support services to law enforcement agencies. His expertise lies in the practical application of environmental criminology, specifically geographic profiling, which we're going to talk a lot about today, crime mapping and forensic intelligence analysis. Now, Douglas works on cases involving serial and violent crimes, missing persons, cold cases, and fugitive apprehension.

00;01;16;00 - 00;01;20;17
Unknown
He uses geographic profiling to help identify patterns, generate the new lines of inquiry

00;01;20;17 - 00;01;22;01
Unknown
and locate crime scenes,

00;01;22;01 - 00;01;37;02
Unknown
or like dumpsites and things like that. His clients include law enforcement, prosecutors, search and rescue teams, private investigators, and academic institutions. So you can find Douglas online as at the Geo profiler. Or you can reach out through Iris Investigative Strategies.

00;01;37;02 - 00;01;52;24
Unknown
I'll put those links up in just a second. But let me bring him on in here. Hey, Doug. How are you doing? Good. Eugene, how are you? I'm good. Thanks for, thanks for joining in here. And that we're doing tit for tat because, you had me on a little, little podcasting you had, and I'm getting you back.

00;01;52;24 - 00;02;02;13
Unknown
Now, you. That's your, I'm happy to be here. And and. Yes, it was great having you on, on my show as well. So I'm looking forward to getting that episode out. Amazing. Thanks a lot. Well,

00;02;02;13 - 00;02;08;12
Unknown
let's just dive in here and let's start talking about geographic profiling stuff. I do want to cover some of your background stuff, but

00;02;08;12 - 00;02;10;05
Unknown
let's look at it this way.

00;02;10;07 - 00;02;33;21
Unknown
What would you explain or what would you say geographic profiling was to, let's say, somebody like in a jury or you're up on the stand and they're saying, you know, you know, Mr. MacGregor, what is it that you do like? What is this geographic profiling? How would you explain it to them? And then what I'd like to know is, how do you see or or what's your own definition of geographic profiling and sort of how has it changed over the years?

00;02;33;21 - 00;02;58;17
Unknown
So, you know, what was it when you first got in, and what does it mean to you now? Sure. I mean, if I was explaining it to anybody, it'd be very simple. Let's say it's a subset of criminal profiling, and it looks at the geographic, environmental, spatial and temporal elements of human behavior. And, and that's usually how I explain it to anybody that asks, without going more and more in depth.

00;02;58;17 - 00;03;28;15
Unknown
So, that's, that's in a sense that's what geographic profiling is. And I think when I first got into geographic profiling, I was thinking more on the software side, the GIS applications, the analytical software. And since I've gotten into geographic profiling, I've realized that it's so much more than that. And that that is just a small component to what it really is.

00;03;28;18 - 00;03;55;00
Unknown
And I think that's but I think there's a reason there why geographic profiling isn't bigger than it is today. Is it more use widespread, well known than it is today? Because of some of the issues underlying there, whether it is a software application or whether it's more, so, you know, that's, that's kind of a quick take on geographic profiling and, what it is.

00;03;55;00 - 00;04;12;04
Unknown
And you know what I've discovered since I've entered the field? Well, you mentioned like, technology, obviously. So, you know, there's there's definitely software and things like that that you're using. But what what like just if you can like what what are some of those other things? Are they just like more people related things or they more like having to deal with law enforcement?

00;04;12;04 - 00;04;37;15
Unknown
Like what what kinds of other things might be there that, you know, you maybe didn't think about, that you would be doing as much of when you first started? Yeah, that's a fun question. You know, geographic profiling, it is behavioral analysis. As it is criminal profiling, but there's so much more that goes into it. It takes into account everything that influences and affects human spatial behavior.

00;04;37;18 - 00;05;02;13
Unknown
And, and it's it's quite shocking that it isn't, like I said, more what more widely used as everything around us every day influences what we do and when. Right. You know, it's something as simple as the rain, right? The rain keeps us inside. So something as simple as the rain, the time of day, where roads are, where they're placed is everything around us.

00;05;02;13 - 00;05;37;00
Unknown
I mean, we use spatial behavior to design our grocery stores, to place our bus stops. So, I mean, for. Just getting it, just getting into, you know, the software side of it and and what else it involves. I mean, there is a software component, there's a technical component, there's a scientific component. There's, you know, some of the things that I didn't think I'd use since I got in, it's just all the consulting that I would have to do as a geographic profiler.

00;05;37;02 - 00;05;58;24
Unknown
You know, it takes into account. And this is this is all before I even get to the behavioral analysis, I have to use the software. I have to use the science. I have to look at, geophysics and geo forensics. I have to consult biologists, you know, as an example, a case I recently worked, it's a noble.

00;05;58;25 - 00;06;26;21
Unknown
It's, it's locating a body deposition site, and I had to consult, a biologist specialized in black bear behavior. I had to consult a biologist specialized in. And cougar, mountain lion behavior. A forensic archeologist. So all these things come into play, before you even get to the behavioral analysis. And then you also have to go through the entire intelligence cycle.

00;06;26;23 - 00;06;49;00
Unknown
So the, although it in the end, it is behavioral analysis, the behavioral analysis, it's everything that leads up to that. Right. That has to be done first. Yeah. It's it sounds like it's obviously very multifaceted. There's a lot of things you're taking into consideration. You, you mentioned that, you know geographic profiling may not be as popular as maybe some other fields or whatever.

00;06;49;07 - 00;07;09;18
Unknown
And I was just wondering, regarding how you got into this and maybe you can give me some background of how you sort of, you know, found your way, but was it something early on that you looked at and said, oh, I have geographic profiling. This is for me? Or was it something that came up later on? You're like, hey, you know, I can do this or this is something this is an area that needs, more attention or something that you wanted to focus on.

00;07;09;18 - 00;07;36;10
Unknown
How did that all happen for you? Sure. My background actually, I started I did a, I did a bachelors in political science, and then from there, I, I was always interested in military, law enforcement, intelligence, those fields. And and from there I went and I did a master's of science in defense and strategic studies, from Missouri State University.

00;07;36;12 - 00;07;59;16
Unknown
And my department was right outside Washington, DC. So I actually did an internship in DC as well in, defense and foreign policy. But it was and at the same time, I did a, an online graduate certificate in, modern counterterrorism strategies. But it was while I was at my masters, we had a guest speaker come in from the FBI.

00;07;59;16 - 00;08;17;25
Unknown
It was one of the few guest guest speakers I was allowed to see. I mean, our class did trips to the CIA. I wasn't allowed to go because I was Canadian. I got to go to the Pentagon, but, yeah, we had a guest speaker come in from the FBI, and he came in to talk to us about, about about terrorism.

00;08;17;28 - 00;08;41;20
Unknown
And one of the things that he was discussing was terrorist profiling, and that just took me in a completely different direction. And I find the, the behavioral part very, mentally challenging. I find it, extremely challenging. And I guess that's kind of the draw for me. And ever since then, I started to go off into the behavioral sciences.

00;08;41;22 - 00;09;03;05
Unknown
I went and I took courses in geographic profiling, behavioral analysis, psychology. And I've been doing that ever since. So who were some of the early people I saw that you had a, like a YouTube video and such where you mentioned a couple people who were, let's say, important people in this field and maybe people who sort of, built it up more as a discipline.

00;09;03;07 - 00;09;25;09
Unknown
And so what can you tell me about some of the key people, from, you know, from your knowledge who were important in this area? Sure. I mean, the two key people that really started geographic profiling were Kim Rossmore in Canada. He's now down in the States. And, and David Canter, Professor Canter out of the United Kingdom.

00;09;25;12 - 00;09;57;23
Unknown
Doctor Osmo now has his, he was with, law enforcement out of in Vancouver, Canada. But now he has his company and, which is, Iqra Environmental Criminology Research Institute and he really commercialized the software first, which is Rigel. It's the geographic profiling software. I think today there must be at least eight different geographic profiling software systems out there.

00;09;57;25 - 00;10;27;12
Unknown
And then in the UK, you had, Professor David Canter, and he went more, I guess, more the academic route. And he had a, I think, I think his program was, investigative psychology. And he has his own software as well. I think it's called Dragnet. But you had these two different camps for geographic profiling, and, and, I mean, they never really meshed, right.

00;10;27;15 - 00;11;00;06
Unknown
There's great research, great studies, great things out of both. They really help get this field up. But the field never really never really took off into, you know, outside, into the greater law enforcement arena. There are agencies out there that use Rigel. Absolutely. And there's agencies out there that have trained from both. But for whatever reason, it's just it's just never really taken off as its own discipline.

00;11;00;08 - 00;11;25;19
Unknown
Now it's saying that there's many crime analysts around the world, that have taken a course here and there that have taken most of them have taken Ramos, GPA, I GPA level 1 or 2. Course I have the GPA, one course from Kim Ramos program. And, and they apply that to their to their analyst position.

00;11;25;22 - 00;11;49;13
Unknown
But in terms of established geographic profilers who do the job full time, there's not many in the world. And and that being said, there's not many agencies in the world that need a full time geographic profiler, right? I mean, crime analysts are needed everywhere. But a geographic profiler, some of your larger agencies, government agencies could use them and distribute them and outsource them.

00;11;49;16 - 00;12;18;12
Unknown
But your smaller agencies don't need full time geographic profilers. Okay. You talked before about software, and I remember. Geez, I'm think I'm going back probably more than ten years ago. I was in Germany, and I remember seeing a presentation from a person at the I think it was the Dutch police, and they were using ArcGIS to map out, crimes and cell phone and, you know, like following people and stuff like that.

00;12;18;12 - 00;12;39;27
Unknown
And they were doing, you know, the radius of, you know, sort of, where people are contained and moving around. So technology is obviously a part of this. And so, you know, you mentioned, mentioned this other software as well. So, what other tools of the trade do you draw upon? To kind of, you know, piece everything together?

00;12;39;29 - 00;13;03;12
Unknown
Sure. I mean, when it comes to software, I mainly use mapping software. That's what I use. I always start with, Google Earth Pro and from there, depending on where I'm working, what region of the world I at in other software, it could be all trails, software that shows all your trails and hiking trails and camping sites and all that kind of stuff.

00;13;03;14 - 00;13;25;26
Unknown
It could be, off road vehicle, off road vehicle, mapping app. It could be, you know, it could be different software from different, jurisdictions that show where all the mine shafts are or stuff like that. So I always start with Google Earth and then add this information in as I go. ArcGIS is fantastic.

00;13;25;26 - 00;14;05;21
Unknown
I mean, I have ArcGIS, I just really have the need for it. Now, that being said, you know, crime analysts, most law enforcement agencies rely on ArcGIS and so and so they should, crime analysts use it day in, day out, to, for various reasons, right, to map out where, you know, nonviolent crime, for example, to map out where crimes take place all over the city, to provide that data to the public so they can better, so they can, you know, work on crime prevention models within the city.

00;14;05;24 - 00;14;39;01
Unknown
But when it comes to the behavioral analysis side, it's just the the analytical software isn't very capable on the behavioral side of things, even the even the specialized geographic profiling software, it doesn't understand behavior. It has certain things that ArcGIS doesn't like linkage analysis, but it doesn't understand the behavioral side of it. It's also limited sometimes in the fact that let's say you have, a serial offender.

00;14;39;03 - 00;14;58;03
Unknown
Well, you need at least you really need five different crimes for that analytical that, that geographic profiling software to work. If you don't have five crimes, what do you do? Right. You sit around and wait. So there's that or there's let's say, yeah. Let's say you have five body dump sites and they're all in the same spot.

00;14;58;03 - 00;15;23;12
Unknown
It's not going to work. So it does have its limitations, just like any software does. But I mean, that's where that's where this field really needs to evolve. It needs to include software, but it also needs to move on outside of the reliance on the software. Okay. Yeah. And well ArcGIS does it does it not have as I recall, it has like a a time or temporal sort of function in there.

00;15;23;12 - 00;15;47;13
Unknown
So you can map things out based on time as well. Like that. They occurred. It does, it does. Yeah. You can I mean, it has so many functions I, I don't use ArcGIS. I, I mean, there's so many people out there that are better at ArcGIS than I am. I don't consider myself a pro at all. But if you're mapping out, if you're mapping out a series of crimes and it maps out, say, a hit and gives you provides you a heat map, right.

00;15;47;13 - 00;16;09;11
Unknown
And this is kind of what the geographic profiling software does as well. You know, you're the hotter you get. That's kind of where you're going to start looking right. And you get to the cooler areas. That's kind of, you know, the if you're just kind of looking at a broad sense what it does. But I mean, if you it like I said, it doesn't understand human behavior.

00;16;09;11 - 00;16;28;19
Unknown
So it's going to miss a lot of things. Right. It's it's it does it like for example, it doesn't really recognize it could recognize multiple clusters. But if you had no cluster it's going to take it as one cluster, for example. Right. It doesn't really recognize that no cluster exists. Which is critical, things like that. But ArcGIS has so many functions.

00;16;28;19 - 00;16;56;16
Unknown
And for your crime analyst, it's it's critical. But I guess one thing that I'm critical of when it comes to crime analysis is crime analyst is is a title of a position that works well. Right. But a lot of people that are crime analysts are crime mappers. Right. Analytical having an analytical skill set is something on its own.

00;16;56;18 - 00;17;22;14
Unknown
It's like being artistic, right? My wife, she's an artist. You tell her anything and she can draw it in. 30s. I couldn't do that on my bike. I couldn't even come close. It'd be a stick figure. Right? So it's a skill set, analytical, having analytical capabilities and analytical mindset is a skill set. And although crime analyst as a position sounds great, a lot of a lot of these individuals, they're fantastic.

00;17;22;14 - 00;17;46;07
Unknown
They're experts at the software. They can do anything you want with the software. But in terms of breaking that down, analyzing it, providing strategies, recommendations. Yeah, that's a that's a completely different skill set. But not all of them have in their, in their, in their toolbox. I saw that you. Yeah. I think you once mentioned about the Stig framework.

00;17;46;07 - 00;18;14;05
Unknown
So Stig, either spatial, temporal, environmental and geographic and I think the, the spatial like the layout and the and the time, the temporal, make a lot of sense. Can you explain a bit more about the the environmental and the geographic factors that are important in building, like an accurate profile? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So each of these I've kind of developed this model on my own, and one day I'll get to writing it down, maybe even do a PhD at some point.

00;18;14;05 - 00;18;43;25
Unknown
We'll see. But these are all different aspects of human behavior. So the spatial, the temporal, we kind of understand, the environmental. Environmental. Simple. How does the environment affect our behavior? Well, some of us like to live in a warm environment. Some of us like to live in a cold environment. Right. If the environments if the environment is very humid, such as Florida, some of us don't like that.

00;18;43;25 - 00;19;06;11
Unknown
So we moved to Texas where it's a dry heat. All right. And I'm from Canada, but I'm using some U.S examples. In case of some American listeners here. Just the type of environment do we like to live in? You know, more of a, kind of, a coastal environment. Do we like to live in, a mountainous region?

00;19;06;14 - 00;19;35;15
Unknown
So all these things affect our behavior, and how do they affect and they affect how we move around in those environments as well? The geographic is is very similar, just on a a bit larger scale, but geographic. It doesn't just include your natural environments, it includes your built environments as well. Right. Your built infrastructure. So, you know, in, in a city, you may have a river that runs through your city.

00;19;35;17 - 00;20;03;16
Unknown
Well, if you live on one side of that river, I bet you $5 that you rarely go to the other side of that river. Right? It's, it's a mental barrier. Same if there's a a railroad track or if there's a major highway. These things contain us, whether they're natural landscape features or built landscape features. All these features, all these geographic features influence the way we move about the spaces we live in.

00;20;03;16 - 00;20;25;01
Unknown
Our awareness spaces. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So in terms of cases, I want maybe I want to bring up a couple of things that you've done and where, you know, sort of deep profiling has sort of come to play. And, how long have you been doing this? Now? Just so I can. I never ask you that.

00;20;25;04 - 00;20;53;21
Unknown
I've been doing this since I think 2016. Okay. And you're involved in cases in US, Canada? I don't know if other places, but mostly US Canada, mostly US Canadian law enforcement is very resistant to outside consultants. So primarily the US and then, some as well in the UK and Australia. Okay. And like what are some of the different types of cases that you work on.

00;20;53;21 - 00;21;14;00
Unknown
So some of them I think I mentioned like there's like missing persons might be one of them, but how do you sort of break them down in your mind. Yeah, I think the cases that I work the most on for law enforcement would be, cold cases. We'll just call them cold cases, whether they're still open or active or not.

00;21;14;00 - 00;21;41;02
Unknown
We'll call them cold cases, that involve violent crime, usually homicide. Or nobody homicides. Increasingly popular now. A nobody homicide is a where you have a suspected homicide, but you don't have a body. So they. And those are the hardest types of case to work for. Geographic for anybody. But for a geographic profile, there is a no body homicide.

00;21;41;04 - 00;22;06;24
Unknown
So those are kind of the cases. I work for law enforcement. I do a lot of missing persons cases, for search and rescue and for families. I do all my all my work for families. To date on my own has been pro bono. So I've just kind of advise and guided families along the way. But I also do missing persons cases, for other clients as well.

00;22;06;27 - 00;22;35;01
Unknown
Serial cases. I have worked serial cases. I worked a, a serial case out of Atlanta back in 2020. There was a serial, murderer. Three homicides have taken place, so I advise their. And, and then some of the areas that I'm trying to get more into, as you mentioned at the beginning, fugitive apprehension. I think geographic profiling is a game would be a game changer in fugitive apprehension.

00;22;35;03 - 00;23;03;19
Unknown
And then there's different types of cases. I've worked. So, I mean, some of these cases obviously involve one or more elements, but I've worked cases involving kidnaping, abduction, and and organized crime. Interesting. But I don't know if you can bring up 1 or 2, but which case for you really stands out, and I don't know if it's an active case or not, but let's say, you know, we don't have to go into specifics, but what kinds of things stood out to you?

00;23;03;21 - 00;23;25;24
Unknown
Like maybe one. That way you're like, damn, I nailed this one. You know? I mean, like, you got you got really close or some things really stood out to you that really reinforced, you know, what it is that you're doing with geographic profiling? Yeah. I mean, a couple good examples. I'm working, a couple of cases right now for two different law enforcement agencies in the Pacific Northwest.

00;23;25;27 - 00;23;59;12
Unknown
They're both nobody. Homicides. One is, the both cold cases. One is a fairly high profile case. I'd love to name it, but I can't, and in both I, I've, I've helped out. I've assisted quite a bit, but in different ways. So in the first, in the first case, and a lot of everything, what I do, it always starts out with a case analysis, intelligence analysis, a gap analysis.

00;23;59;15 - 00;24;28;15
Unknown
These things are all first, right? Sometimes I never even get to the geographic profiling element. The behavioral part of it. So in the first case I did a complete case review. And just through gap analysis and some of the geographic profiling stuff, I was able to show that there's key investigative areas that were overlooked, stuff that were presumed to be one thing, but were actually another.

00;24;28;17 - 00;24;53;16
Unknown
And so I was able to that case to actually identify crime scenes and those crime scenes are now being investigated in the cases moving forward. So there's that in the other case that I mentioned there, it's a, it's a nobody homicide. And like I mentioned, nobody homicides are are the toughest. And I always try to help in every case.

00;24;53;19 - 00;25;15;01
Unknown
But I'm always upfront and honest if, if I'm if geographic profiling is not going to going to be of assistance, I say it outright. If there's something I may be able to do, I might take a look. But, but for a case like a nobody homicide, you really have to have a suspect because you have to have somebody to profile.

00;25;15;03 - 00;25;47;01
Unknown
And in a nobody homicide case, you're profiling the suspect, right? So in that case, it's not done yet. I'm still working on it. But I've, again, I've been able to identify areas of the initial investigation that have to be looked at again. I've identified areas that were where that need to be searched, that were not searched or were not searched appropriately the first time, using the appropriate resources.

00;25;47;04 - 00;26;12;27
Unknown
And that gets a little bit into the, the geo forensic side of it as well. What resources are you using to search and where and when? I was, I was and from that case also, I was also better able to, to mold some of the and create some of the training sessions that I will be delivering in the future.

00;26;13;00 - 00;26;35;26
Unknown
One example is when, when law enforcement, when they're, when they have a suspect and they go and they and they get a warrant, for example, for, Cedric records, which are called detailed records, of a, someone's mobile phone, they, they often get from the point of the crime onwards. And you usually get a three month window.

00;26;35;26 - 00;26;56;07
Unknown
Right. Most, most companies give you three months worth and that's it. So they usually get from the point of the crime onwards, but it doesn't give you a baseline. So I'm, I'm now able to go in and, and add that to my teachings and that if you're, if you work for law enforcement, you need to get a baseline of this person.

00;26;56;09 - 00;27;16;16
Unknown
And, and you need to figure out just like a criminal profiler would tell you. Right. Or if somebody that does, somebody does polygraph testing, you need to find a baseline, their baseline spatial behavior. That's what I need. And it doesn't you can never get it after that point. So I've had law enforcement agencies go back and say, oh, a year later we'll go back and we'll get their call.

00;27;16;16 - 00;27;41;27
Unknown
Detailed records now, and we'll see if they're but they're baselines never going back to normal. Right. Because they may avoid a specific area for the rest of their life because they buried a body there, for example. So, in that sense, I'm able to better teach agencies in the future on how to. That's just one example with the call records, but how to better get a behavioral spatial behavioral baseline for a potential suspect.

00;27;41;29 - 00;27;57;10
Unknown
Nice. There's a question here from is it same here? I'm going to bring it up here so we can both see it. But it says, how is this method tested or validated in a legal context? Are there any scientific or legal standards that recognize the results of this profiling as evidence? So I think it's a fair question.

00;27;57;13 - 00;28;25;26
Unknown
You know, how is geographic profiling scientific? What is it draw upon? Is there a scientific method? What can you tell us about that? Yeah. No, that's an excellent question. I've never been an expert witness. I've never I've never been asked to, but I've never gotten to that point. What I do is I create an analytical product, I provide it to law enforcement or a prosecutor, and they take it from there.

00;28;25;29 - 00;28;50;22
Unknown
Now there's a couple different elements to this. I'll try to hit on as many as I can to answer that question. There are there are elements of geographic profiling that are easily validated and can be used in expert testimony. For example, geosciences. Right. Why did you decide to search here? Geo forensics? Geosciences. Why did you decide to search here?

00;28;50;24 - 00;29;13;27
Unknown
Well, we figured that this person, based on the evidence at hand, buried a body, this soil, and his personality would tell me that he's a controlling person. So he's going to keep the the body on property that he has territorial and access control to. This is the best site to bury a body based on soil conditions. Right.

00;29;13;27 - 00;29;45;18
Unknown
So this is why we led to this specific site. It's just one example. Now, it's worth pointing out that, like in a case of a nobody homicide, I never find a body. I never find a body. Right? I provide recommendations, strategies, places of high probability, and then law enforcement uses their resources at my recommendations, but they use their resources to go and locate the body.

00;29;45;20 - 00;30;16;01
Unknown
All right, so I might say you need to look in this area here. And then they go out with the necessary equipment, whether it's drones, whether it's dogs, whether it's ground penetrating radar. And then they search that area or excavate that area and see if there's a body there. So in that sense, they can say, we were advised by this person who specializes in geographic profiling, and then we use our resources to locate this body.

00;30;16;03 - 00;30;52;00
Unknown
So it really depends. And the other way to look at it is there is so much research out there that supports human spatial behavior. Right? It's just it's not applied forensically. And so, you know, taking a quick step back, geographic profiling has been around for hundreds of years. Right. So has criminal profiling right on the geopolitical level hundreds of years ago, you know, different countries were different.

00;30;52;05 - 00;31;11;17
Unknown
They were they were profiling, you know, military strategists, military leaders, leaders of other countries. When are they going to attack? Where are they going to attack? Where are they going to go? How are they going to get there? So that kind of profiling concepts always been around. You know, we've just taken it and applied it forensically on a smaller scale.

00;31;11;19 - 00;31;54;22
Unknown
You know, I mean, a lot of the technology that you use, Eugene, it wasn't initially created, developed for forensic purposes. And, and same with all the studies I have. It I always say I have it a bit easier than criminal profilers in the sense that there are so many studies out there on human spatial behavior that I can look at and, and I can apply that to for to forensically because the I don't need to have it helps, but I don't need a study that says this is where people bury bodies.

00;31;54;24 - 00;32;14;22
Unknown
There's a handful of studies out there. I've read them. They're great, but I don't necessarily need that right. I just need studies on human spatial behavior. This is where people go and why for different purposes, right? Because if we do it on a regular basis, we're going to do it forensically to bury a body. So I hope I answered some of the questions in there.

00;32;14;22 - 00;32;50;24
Unknown
I kind of went off on a tangent. No, no, not at all. That that's totally fine. But I do like a lot of what you're talking about to the with the studies, there's obviously probabilities involved and things like that. So, let me ask you the AI question. I mean, do you see, you know, artificial intelligence? You know, potentially helping your work, by, I don't know, either gathering data or training data or looking at different studies and, you know, maybe making some, you know, estimations or probabilities based on, you know, a certain criminal, maybe something specific to one person or for a general population.

00;32;50;26 - 00;33;20;05
Unknown
You know, again, a great question. I use I'm using AI more and more now. Just in a general sense. I, I'm not I'm not sure the like as I mentioned before, the software, the algorithm, right now, the algorithms, the analytical software does not understand human behavior, cannot apply it. Well, excuse me, will I be able to do that?

00;33;20;08 - 00;33;50;26
Unknown
Maybe, again, it's going to draw from different sources to do that. But, I'm definitely going to keep my eye open if I, if I find a, a utility for AI in some of the cases I work, I will absolutely, employ it. When you're working with law enforcement agencies or like different people, what is some of the information that you request upfront, like what are some of the things that they have available.

00;33;50;26 - 00;34;02;02
Unknown
And I guess in some cases maybe nowadays they have more data than before, but on the older cases maybe more difficult, but what is it that you typically request from them?

00;34;02;04 - 00;34;25;00
Unknown
When I work for law enforcement, I asked for the entire case file. I have to go through the whole thing. There are a lot of it. I wouldn't be able to ask for pieces here and there, because law enforcement doesn't necessarily know what I'm looking for. And sometimes it's the most obscure thing. So I asked for the entire case file.

00;34;25;03 - 00;34;50;06
Unknown
I asked for an entire evidence list. Crime scene analysis, crime scene photos. I have to start at ground zero. I have to start from the beginning. Anything and everything they have. And then I'm always going back and asking them questions. Because there's always answers that I need that aren't in the case file. And there's always people that need to be interviewed, and ask specific questions that aren't in the case file.

00;34;50;09 - 00;35;15;29
Unknown
And on top of that, I have to do my in my own, intelligence analysis of the of of different actors within that case file. I have to do a geographic profile of each individual key individual in that, in that, case file. So all this information they usually don't have, so it does take a lot of work.

00;35;16;03 - 00;35;38;02
Unknown
And, and just starting with the information they have, that's, that's just where I start. Okay. Another question that I had was having to do with sort of the, the scale of your work because, you know, you're dealing over maybe large areas or it could be between states, it could be, you know, a large neighborhood or whatever. So I keep thinking about sort of the, the macro view of everything.

00;35;38;02 - 00;36;02;24
Unknown
But what about the micro like the detail. So for example, if, there's 2 or 3 bodies that are found and like the specifics of how they were buried or, the location of where they were buried, the, the way and like, are you looking at those details as well? Yeah, absolutely. And that's one area where geographic profiling really hasn't been applied yet is a crime scene analysis.

00;36;02;27 - 00;36;26;01
Unknown
And that's essential in a crime scene analysis. And I'll give you an example. I recently worked the case of Rachel Martin for the family of Rachel Martin. And I went down and, and I mean, for anybody who doesn't know, Rachel was jogging on a trail in Bellaire, Maryland, and she was attacked, and she was murdered.

00;36;26;04 - 00;36;56;00
Unknown
The trial's now complete. The suspect was, charged, and he was convicted. So I went down and I visited the site twice. And just from my initial visit, without any knowledge, you know, I could tell exactly where it happened. I could tell you, how exactly I was able to show exactly where the offender was. So happened in a drainage tunnel.

00;36;56;03 - 00;37;25;05
Unknown
There was two drainage tunnels. I was able to identify which drainage channel. Exactly. In the drainage tunnel where it happened. I was able to identify the entry and exit routes of the offender in and out of that area, which were ultimately proven true. And. Geographic profiling for crime scenes is is critical for not only locating human remains, but locating evidence.

00;37;25;07 - 00;37;51;14
Unknown
So in my analysis, I did not work for law enforcement on this case, but in my profile with what I identified. If you had organized the initial search of the area based on my profile, there was evidence that you would have found immediately that wasn't found for a week later. And even in my profile, there was there was a lot of debate.

00;37;51;14 - 00;38;12;23
Unknown
Oh, this person, the offender likely went out the back of the tunnel, and I was able to show why they didn't go out the back of the tunnel, or why it was unlikely. But then I think the key takeaway here, and is that I was able to show again, my material was not used in court for this case, but I was able to show that this was actually premeditated murder.

00;38;12;26 - 00;38;47;06
Unknown
They proved it a different way because he they found out that he actually brought a shovel to the site. So they were able to that showed premeditated murder that way. But I was able to show that it was premeditated murder because the location where he attacked and ultimately where he left Rachel's body, was the only location in the entire trail system that you'd be able to conceal a body with enough time to get away, shows premeditation, shows that he knew the area, shows that he picked, selected a spot to carry this out and have time to get away.

00;38;47;08 - 00;39;11;11
Unknown
All right. Interesting. Yeah. Some of the ways that your work helps is not by. And you said this yourself, right? You're not locating a body. But I think that was an interesting point you made locating evidence. I think that's really important. But the other thing is when you have a very like an infinite search area, practically you can help to narrow things down, right?

00;39;11;11 - 00;39;42;15
Unknown
Like you can you can help to minimize the wasted time in other places that maybe may not be important in your opinion. Exactly. And that's part of the, you know, the key definition of geographic profiling, same as criminal profiling, is you're just trying to save law enforcement time, money and resources, right. And to do that, you're trying to well, while a criminal profiler is trying to narrow down a suspect pool.

00;39;42;17 - 00;40;06;26
Unknown
Right. The the who, the what, the why, trying to narrow down the suspect pool. I'm trying to narrow down a geographic area. So I'm doing the same thing. The the where in the when. So in doing that, I can law enforcement and then focus on a specific area, save themselves time, money and resources. Now a lot of times I work with criminal profilers.

00;40;06;28 - 00;40;29;24
Unknown
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who goes first, who provides their product first, or whether we work together and and provide that at the same time. But we're both narrowing down that and focusing that investigation. And that's and that's critical for law enforcement. You mentioned before that you're working a lot with families, which is different. Like with me, I typically don't work with families.

00;40;29;24 - 00;40;54;21
Unknown
I'm usually either working directly for law enforcement or I'm working through like an attorney or defense lawyer or something like that. So in these, collaborative kind of exercises or investigations, where you're working with families, how do you how do you maintain objectivity? And you know, what? What are the ethical considerations that you need to consider? Sure.

00;40;54;24 - 00;41;26;16
Unknown
Like I said, I work with families. I've always worked with families quite a bit. Less so now, just because my case, my, I'm, my caseload is heavier with law enforcement now, but I love working for families, and I help them wherever I can. The reason I've never charged families is because I'm. I'm limited in what I can do with my capabilities because I don't have access to the case file, for example.

00;41;26;19 - 00;41;58;02
Unknown
Right. I usually have a little bit more information than the public has just because the next of kin or family is in contact with law enforcement. So I usually have a little bit more information. The objectivity side of it, in every case I work, I always remain completely objective, completely neutral. Right? I don't go into it with any, I mean, it helps when you're not getting paid by somebody to remain neutral.

00;41;58;05 - 00;42;20;18
Unknown
The families, when it comes to a criminal case, you know, families, they just want resolution. Justice for the loved one. Right? It doesn't really. I haven't come up in a situation where it really matters to them who that is. They just want the offender court. So it's kind of easy to remain neutral and objective in that sense.

00;42;20;20 - 00;42;45;25
Unknown
What was the second part? I just about the ethics, you know, and, but I think, I think that's, Yeah, yeah. And I think the ethical part of it is I'm realistic with families, honest with them, and I do what I can and I always try to be. Honesty is a big one because families often want hope, but you can always give them hope.

00;42;45;27 - 00;43;10;28
Unknown
Right. I never say for sure because I don't know. But I say based on what I see here, based on the evidence I have, this is what I think happened to your loved one. And I say that. But however I could be wrong, but this is what it's pointing to. And I think in my experience they all appreciate the honesty.

00;43;11;00 - 00;43;51;01
Unknown
But again, they're always looking for hope. And sometimes they disagree with me because they are looking for that hope. What kind of background, what kind of personality, or what kind of skills do you think a person needs to be a good geographic profiler? Inquisitive. Inquisitive? Having, analytical mindset helps, being open to realizing that you don't know everything is critical because, like I said, I consult somebody different, somebody new on every case.

00;43;51;04 - 00;44;35;03
Unknown
And I don't go and do 40 hours of research on black bear activity. You know, I just call a black bear consultant, for example. So being open to that, really wanting to help people and, but, it's if someone's getting into geographic profiling, I would, I would recommend becoming going into crime analysis. And then from there asking your agency if you can pursue specialized training and geographic profiling, it is very difficult to make it full time geographic profiling.

00;44;35;06 - 00;44;55;26
Unknown
It's not. People just don't. And that was one of the hurdles I really faced getting into the field that I didn't know coming into the field is that nobody knows about it. It's really been kind of held close to the heart, by by the people that have been that have, kind of been trying to grow it over the years.

00;44;55;29 - 00;45;20;05
Unknown
And almost every agency I work with, I first have to explain what it is, what I can do for them. So I'm constantly trying to sell myself. But yes, if you're looking to get into it, go into crime analysis or criminal intelligence analysis or forensic and any, any one of those fields and, and then pursue the specialized training on the side which is offered.

00;45;20;07 - 00;45;45;25
Unknown
So are there like, are there university level courses that you can take on geographic profiling or that people like won't? Who who are the people teaching this right now or who who are well known for teaching this right now? The main one is Doctor Rasmus group, ICRC. And what you would do is you would take the the GPS geographic profiling analyst level one, and then apply for it to take the level two.

00;45;45;28 - 00;46;17;03
Unknown
So that's, that's the number one. You can find it in other places. As I mentioned, Qantas program in the UK has their investigative psychology, which specializes in geographic profiling as well. And then there's other mini courses around the world that you can find that, that also teach it. So it is out there. I mean, if you're part of the International Association of Crime Analysts, which I am as well, I think this summer even they have a geographic profiling course coming up.

00;46;17;06 - 00;46;39;25
Unknown
So there are different places to find it. But yeah, let me ask you about some of the other stuff. And then you bring this online here. So Iris, I brought it up at the very beginning in the introduction, incident response and investigative strategies. So what can you tell me about Iris? So, Iris, we just really started, in 2024, 2025 over the last 12 months.

00;46;39;27 - 00;47;01;27
Unknown
And it was a group of us that have worked together. And our team can all be found in here, have worked together on various cases, over the years. 2 or 3 of us here and there, and we all decided to come together and and create Iris. It is owned and operated by, Kathy and John Decker.

00;47;02;03 - 00;47;32;02
Unknown
There at the top. Husband and wife, retired law enforcement, Kathy's retired homicide. And John spent much of his time in bomb disposal units. So we've all come together and and now we work criminal investigations and we to agencies that need the help and need to outsource, to a private company such as ourselves. And it's every the need is there for all sides of agencies.

00;47;32;05 - 00;47;51;28
Unknown
If you have your bigger city agencies, they need the help because they're just overloaded. A lot of cutbacks and all these agencies cutbacks and homicides. So they need the help, the help. And then you have the smaller agencies that just don't have the experience working. Certain types of cases that call upon us as well. And we have other clients outside of law enforcement, too.

00;47;52;01 - 00;48;23;09
Unknown
Okay. You're also quite active on, on social media. So I want to bring some of this stuff up and maybe you can tell, the audience here like, kind of what you've got going on with your, different podcasts and stuff like that. Sure. I started this, with podcast. This is so surviving. The survivor is the main podcast with host Joel Waldman, which many people know and he, they started a him and his wife started a second channel, which is true crime talk.

00;48;23;11 - 00;48;48;17
Unknown
And right now they have myself and, and two other hosts that have started shows on their second channel. So I post on there, generally speaking, I post weekly, show on there, whether it's just me or whether it's me with a guest, like, such as yourself, Eugene. And so you can find my new shows on there and then my own YouTube page.

00;48;48;24 - 00;49;06;29
Unknown
I post some additional material. All these cases, all the episodes I post on here will also be posted on my second channel a few weeks after. And, but I do have to get more active on my own channel. Just I got to find the time and. Yeah, that's always the problem, isn't it? But you do have some videos here.

00;49;06;29 - 00;49;25;19
Unknown
I mean, for people who want to know more about geographic profiling, do you do a bunch of, you know, what is environmental criminology you got what is geographic profiling? You talk about Paul Bernardo. I mean, there's much cases and different things that you do. Here. So I thought that was pretty good. You know, there's some there's some good background that people can get here.

00;49;25;19 - 00;49;45;21
Unknown
So, folks, you can always look, I got it online here. The, true crime talk is at Steve's talk as well. So, there's there's more there for you. So, Doug, what is next for you? Like, what? What are you looking to do in the future? I mean, promoting, geographic profiling is something I'm seeing that you are doing, whether you know it or not.

00;49;45;21 - 00;50;02;07
Unknown
You are. You're going to be the face of geographic profiling. Maybe. I don't know, but what else is it that you I don't know that you're looking at doing in terms of geographic profiling? Is there any, testing or research that you're thinking of doing? Are there things that you want to explore? Tell me what you got in your mind.

00;50;02;10 - 00;50;24;25
Unknown
So many things. The main one is, you know, you hit the nail on the head. I really want to grow the field, expand the field. I want to make it applicable to everybody. That's that's that's my goal, you know, like, I mean, you have Doctor Kanter and Doctor Ross Mo you know they're they're kind of Doctor Kanter I believe is now retired.

00;50;24;25 - 00;50;46;26
Unknown
He may still have his own consulting business. I'm not sure doctor Ross Mo is also getting up there. I mean they still have their training program and software, but the software isn't affordable. It's not available to everybody. A small agency cannot afford that kind of software. I want to make geographic profiling applicable and affordable to everybody.

00;50;46;26 - 00;51;06;01
Unknown
So I do want to really keep expanding it in the media, getting out there, letting people know what it is, working more cases, letting law enforcement agencies know what it is. I want to start, you know, doing more training, conducting more training sessions and going to more symposiums and conferences. I really want to get this out there.

00;51;06;03 - 00;51;32;24
Unknown
And I also want to really expand it and show that it can be applied in so many more settings than than what the software can apply as well. You know, the soft was great. Have that, but also it can be applied by anybody and everybody in all these settings, even even if, even if you come to my, training that I conduct and you're, you know, you're a detective or, and you can apply 1 or 2 things.

00;51;32;24 - 00;51;57;26
Unknown
Fantastic. That's a win for me. So I really want to just keep spreading the capability and and and go from there and, adapting personally, I want to adapt more technology to the field. A lot of technologies that you use, for example, I've started adapting lidar. I've been able I've been fortunate enough to work, with drones with wider.

00;51;57;26 - 00;52;19;11
Unknown
I don't have my own. That's that's down the road some ways. But I've been fortunate enough to work with that and then be able to analyze those images. I'm applying lidar just using the, the iPhone Pro, and, but also I want to see what other technologies software I, whatever it may be, can be applied to geographic profiling as well.

00;52;19;13 - 00;52;41;12
Unknown
What. So in terms of training though. So I mean, you said you have some training. Is that usually agency specific or is there anything you might think about doing online or. I mean, you get to have you been out at conferences and things like doing some presentations and such? Yeah. So we're just getting all that set up and we're doing this all through Iris because we're, we're, we're doing it as a group.

00;52;41;12 - 00;53;08;00
Unknown
So there'll be one, 2 or 3 of us conducting a training session. I've trained, three search and rescue organizations so far in the last, in the last year, in the last six months, we had the South Sound Cold Case symposium coming up in Washington state in September, which I'll be presenting at and working, a, a case, a case study with there as well, with attendees.

00;53;08;03 - 00;53;27;06
Unknown
We're working on, we're working on webinars, myself and some others on from Iris. And we're also working on getting into, a couple of several academic institutions and providing college, university level courses as well. Okay, great. Hey, do you mind if I put up your, your LinkedIn profile here just in case somebody wants to get a hold of you?

00;53;27;11 - 00;53;47;08
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let me do that here. But, down at the bottom, Iris, investigative strategies.com. They can go to the contact form there also and contact you. Or, you can hit, Doug up on LinkedIn as well. He's certainly available. So, yeah. Doug, thanks so much. I think this was a topic that, you know, I really haven't touched on in, you know, over 100 episodes.

00;53;47;08 - 00;54;05;15
Unknown
And so I really appreciate you, you know, chiming in and just, it's it sounds like there's a lot of opportunity in this field. There's potential for a lot of growth for a lot of new things to happen. So, you know, my hat's off to you. You got a lot of work ahead of you. Maybe, but, it's it's nice when there's, an open space like that where you can do a lot.

00;54;05;15 - 00;54;16;07
Unknown
So. Good for you. Thank you, Jason, and thank you so much for having me on today. All right. Sounds good. Hey, hang back and I'll come back and, chat with you in a bit, okay? Thank you so much. Thank you. All right.

00;54;16;07 - 00;54;18;05
Unknown
Okay, folks, that does it for this one.

00;54;18;05 - 00;54;23;20
Unknown
Thanks everybody for chiming in. If you have any questions, you always put them down in the comments and we're going to see you soon.

00;54;23;20 - 00;54;25;15
Unknown
So have a good Thursday everyone. Bye bye.